Devils Throat TAKE LIGHT

[DandyDon]

Hello all. I was there, too.
I credit the Dive Master and boat Captain for their deft response. I watched them in action and I was very proud. It is useful to analyze things to help one learn from life's events... not just diving.
I've thought long and hard about how I might have been a more useful group member, or might have helped avert this frightening event.
Here is what I've decided:
1. It takes a lot of courage to admit that you're "a little" anxious. In the future I will treat such admissions, how ever casual, with fewer glib assurances.
2. I don't know how dive operators generally treat last-minute cancellations, but it would be a good thing to know. Worst case, it's better to eat the charge for a dive you don't make than have a bad experience.
3. I will seek additional training, both for cavern certification, and to refresh my Rescue training, concentrating especially on oxygen delivery and airway management.
4. I'll take lights, even if I choose not to use them... and a spare, just in case a buddy needs one.
take care~~

Welcome to SB.com - enjoy yourself in our forums. How about posting an Intro in that one.

And thanks for your input here...

 

[MikeFerrara]

Anything different than the "Take a light" of the thread subject line?

While you may feel that we are taking potshots at you, the intended audience is really all of the other divers that may in the future consider doing this dive.

Are you from Indiana too?

 

[Jasonmh]

...
I did not expect (at last count 151 replies and 25 PMs)!! Be that as it may, I thank the majority of individual respondents for “getting it”. It appears there are a handful of individuals (especially MikeF and DanG) who for some reason don’t think I/we learned anything from the experience. In order to alleviate their concerns, let me see if I can list some (certainly not ALL) of the salient points:

#1 My wife and I need more training and specifically cave diver training (as previously stated we are going for our rescue certs provided my wife is willing to get back in the water. I think I’ll avoid the cave cert since I have no desire to dive caves).

#2 I caused the accident by not being a good buddy or being well trained

#3 My wife caused the accident by not being well trained

#4 The DM caused the accident since he shouldn’t have let us go down there due to 1, 2, & 3 above.

#5 The DO caused the accident by allowing the DM to take us to the dive

#6 Choice of DO doesn’t matter as long as one is cave trained

#7 No need to know of a good Doctor in Coz if one has been cave trained

#8 No need to know of a good hospital in Coz if one has been cave trained

#9 No need for DAN insurance if one has been cave trained

I think that covers most of what has been posted by the folks who didn’t understand my original posting. As info, we are not idiots, we realize if we could do it all over we would do a lot of things differently. We also feel extremely blessed that God allowed my wife to survive this accident and provided a tragic glimpse of what can happen.

We also now know what rape victims feel like when they go to trial and the defense attorney makes them feel the rape was their fault. We wish we had the power to go back in time and do it all over with this invaluable advice, but we can’t. All we can do is learn from the experience and look forward to being better divers in the future.
Lastly and most importantly, we truly have something to be thankful for this Thanksgiving and all the Thanksgivings to come. The life lessons we gained from this experience far outweigh any of the diving lessons we learned!!!

I am, and I'm sure everyone else here is, very glad that you and your wife are ok.
I was kind of appalled, like a few others had mentioned, at your seemingly cavalier attitude towards this event that came within a hair's breath of killing your wife.
I'm sure there are many emotions going on right now, but I took much of your posts as "Oh well, luckily we are ok, no harm no foul. Stuff is going to happen anyway so I really don't want to hear about what I could have done or what I could do in the future to keep this from happening again".
The things that MikeF, Dan, and a few others have said were in an effort to 1- make sure that you don't have a dive in the future where you have to go through an incident like this or worse again, and 2- help other people think more about the type of diving they are ready (prepared for menatally and physically, trained for, etc.) to do. Just because someone is offered a dive, does not mean it is always a good idea to do the dive. If you refuse to even consider what they are saying because you feel you are being personally attacked you might be missing a point that could help you in the future.

We also now know what rape victims feel like when they go to trial and the defense attorney makes them feel the rape was their fault.

Wow, you really think your little experience here is the equal to being a rape victim?
Of your nine points above, it was really #1,2, and 3 that most people were addressing. I'd say 4 and 5 could be argued too, but I think that people are responsible for themselves. So you are complaining now that a few people on here are making you feel like this is your fault? This issue is nothing like a rape, someone did not sneak up on your wife, rip her reg out, stuff her in a different tunnel, and make her breathe water. Your sarcastic listing of points aside, whos fault do YOU think this was? Not wanting to listen to good advice because you don't want to hear that you and/or your wife was responsible for this incident is an unsafe attitude.

I certainly hope that you and your wife enjoy many happy future dives.

 

[Charlie99]

Are you from Indiana too?

I only live in places with saltwater --- Massachusetts for the summer, Maui for winter, and occasional stops in my main home in Northern California in between. If I ever develop an uncontrollable urge to dive a quarry, I'll come visit you. BTW, I've never done a pool dive and the only fresh water diving I've done was a couple of guided tours in the Cenotes. Since this thread is about beat to death, maybe we should segue into another thread on OW divers without overhead training doing Cenote dives. :banana:

I'm not quite up to Hoosier standards. Judging from your posts we have somewhat different philosophies on diving. You are very dedicated to having the proper training, minimizing risks and not doing stupid things. I believe in understanding and minimizing risks, but don't have quite the same dedication, so sometimes my approach is more like "Now, just how stupid is this thing I'm about to do?".

Charlie Allen

 

[pilot fish]

Ok, I thought my question was obvious. I forget people sometimes forget how to mind read. By reclassified I mean, it is now a dive that only requires AOW cert. If it got reclassified by the DO's to require cave cert before they allow you to dive on that site, would that solve some of the problems that you see as inherent in this dive site?

I don't know about that. You keep talking about how it's classified and what's required. Why don't we talk about what the diver sees as the real risks and what they do to manage those risks rather than discussing what someone else requires of you.

The world is full of caves, oceans, lakes and rivers and the majority of it is uncontrolled. What counts is what the diver thinks and decides.

I think the correct "classification", if we need one, would be to say that it's a coral cave system. Regardless of the exact configuration it is an overhead environment at least in places and therefor has certain things in common with other overhead environments.

As a practical matter, I think we would be well off to consider the general hazards (those associated with being under water and which all divers are, in theory, taught to consider) and the specific hazards which are those that are unique to the environment. What are some? Depth, dark, overhead obstructions, restrictions...maybe others?

What are some other things we might consider? So far we've only addressed our own preservation. what about preservation of the environment itself? What do the walls inside that tunnel look like and what did they look like before it became a popular dive site? What skills do we need to minimize the damage that we do?

I still think Lynne put it best. You can bet on nothing happening to you, just follow the DM through and probably be right...but you might be wrong. the dive that the OP's wife had doesn't sound like any fun at all to me and I don't want to do one like that. Do you? It's clear that, though the DM got her up and she lived, he did not prevent the incident from happening. Is your goal to prevent it?

I think all a dive op should require is money. The steps you take for your own well being and the well being of the environment that you dive in is another matter.

 

[Dan Gibson]

We also now know what rape victims feel like when they go to trial and the defense attorney makes them feel the rape was their fault.

What and incredibly horrible comparison. :shakehead

 

[pilot fish]

Again I will say, it is not eay to come on this Board and relate an error in judgement, a mistake, or accident. When a person has the courage to do that, as Tex 53 has done, it would be nice if people would adjust their tones a bit so as not to diminish the good points they make. None of the advice here has been bad , it is just the damn tone that people, like me, are taking exception to. There is a right and a wrong way to talk to peole and to me a lot of this has been harsh, which delutes the sound content of what is being said. In other words, say it nicely and stop shouting in this man and his wife's face.

No, it does not have to be fru-fru and smarmy, that is worse, but it could be offered in a more constructive way.

This is freekin amazing!!! Now I know what posting a story on the web can do. I’ll be sure and add that to the long list of lessons learned from this experience.

It took me a while to figure out who/what the OP was but, for the record, my name is David and I’m the husband and dive buddy of the person (Helene) who experienced a near drowning incident. My humble intent in posting this story was to pass along an account of an extremely emotional and life changing experience my wife and I shared in Cozumel. Additionally, I was hoping to relay a few (certainly not ALL inclusive list of take-aways I/we had from the experience).

I did not expect (at last count 151 replies and 25 PMs)!! Be that as it may, I thank the majority of individual respondents for “getting it”. It appears there are a handful of individuals (especially MikeF and DanG) who for some reason don’t think I/we learned anything from the experience. In order to alleviate their concerns, let me see if I can list some (certainly not ALL) of the salient points:

#1 My wife and I need more training and specifically cave diver training (as previously stated we are going for our rescue certs provided my wife is willing to get back in the water. I think I’ll avoid the cave cert since I have no desire to dive caves).

#2 I caused the accident by not being a good buddy or being well trained

#3 My wife caused the accident by not being well trained

#4 The DM caused the accident since he shouldn’t have let us go down there due to 1, 2, & 3 above.

#5 The DO caused the accident by allowing the DM to take us to the dive

#6 Choice of DO doesn’t matter as long as one is cave trained

#7 No need to know of a good Doctor in Coz if one has been cave trained

#8 No need to know of a good hospital in Coz if one has been cave trained

#9 No need for DAN insurance if one has been cave trained

I think that covers most of what has been posted by the folks who didn’t understand my original posting. As info, we are not idiots, we realize if we could do it all over we would do a lot of things differently. We also feel extremely blessed that God allowed my wife to survive this accident and provided a tragic glimpse of what can happen.

We also now know what rape victims feel like when they go to trial and the defense attorney makes them feel the rape was their fault. We wish we had the power to go back in time and do it all over with this invaluable advice, but we can’t. All we can do is learn from the experience and look forward to being better divers in the future.
Lastly and most importantly, we truly have something to be thankful for this Thanksgiving and all the Thanksgivings to come. The life lessons we gained from this experience far outweigh any of the diving lessons we learned!!!

 

[Rule62]

I am, and I'm sure everyone else here is, very glad that you and your wife are ok.
I was kind of appalled, like a few others had mentioned, at your seemingly cavalier attitude towards this event that came within a hair's breath of killing your wife.
I'm sure there are many emotions going on right now, but I took much of your posts as "Oh well, luckily we are ok, no harm no foul. Stuff is going to happen anyway so I really don't want to hear about what I could have done or what I could do in the future to keep this from happening again".
The things that MikeF, Dan, and a few others have said were in an effort to 1- make sure that you don't have a dive in the future where you have to go through an incident like this or worse again, and 2- help other people think more about the type of diving they are ready (prepared for menatally and physically, trained for, etc.) to do. Just because someone is offered a dive, does not mean it is always a good idea to do the dive. If you refuse to even consider what they are saying because you feel you are being personally attacked you might be missing a point that could help you in the future.

I'm amazed, either you can't read or it's your comprehension level. Let me put it in plain simple English. WE GET IT! We need more training and experience! We plan on getting more training and experience! My "cavalier" attitude was displayed not to minimize the incident NOR avoid understanding the cause, it was merely to avoid reliving the actual event. I've done that enough and continue to do it on a daily basis.
Wow, you really think your little experience here is the equal to being a rape victim?

See above re: comprehension level. My analogy (that means a comparison in order to show a similarity (that means like but not exact)) of the rape victim was used to illustrate the finger pointing and blaming which appears to be a style used here to provide advice. Maybe not the greatest analogy (remember what that means?) but it's the first that came to mind!

Of your nine points above, it was really #1,2, and 3 that most people were addressing. I'd say 4 and 5 could be argued too, but I think that people are responsible for themselves. So you are complaining now that a few people on here are making you feel like this is your fault? This issue is nothing like a rape, someone did not sneak up on your wife, rip her reg out, stuff her in a different tunnel, and make her breathe water. Your sarcastic listing of points aside, whos fault do YOU think this was? Not wanting to listen to good advice because you don't want to hear that you and/or your wife was responsible for this incident is an unsafe attitude.

I beleive I already addresed what we are planning to do. Like any accident, if things were done differently it could or may have been avoided.

I certainly hope that you and your wife enjoy many happy future dives.

Happy Thanksgiving!! We certainly have more than our usual to be thankful for and we thank God for giving us these lessons.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I only live in places with saltwater --- Massachusetts for the summer, Maui for winter, and occasional stops in my main home in Northern California in between.

Would you consider adopting me?

I asked if you were from In because of mawgs comment about both Dan and I being from In.

If I ever develop an uncontrollable urge to dive a quarry, I'll come visit you. BTW, I've never done a pool dive and the only fresh water diving I've done was a couple of guided tours in the Cenotes. Since this thread is about beat to death, maybe we should segue into another thread on OW divers without overhead training doing Cenote dives. :banana:

I have that discussion all the time with Denis. I figure that if your going to argue that one you might as well argue it with someone who does it every day.

I'm not quite up to Hoosier standards. Judging from your posts we have somewhat different philosophies on diving. You are very dedicated to having the proper training, minimizing risks and not doing stupid things. I believe in understanding and minimizing risks, but don't have quite the same dedication, so sometimes my approach is more like "Now, just how stupid is this thing I'm about to do?".

Charlie Allen

Not too different. I've done (and probably will do) some stupid things. I just can't recommend them.

 

[Rule62]

Again I will say, it is not eay to come on this Board and relate an error in judgement, a mistake, or accident. When a person has the courage to do that, as Tex 53 has done, it would be nice if people would adjust their tones a bit so as not to diminish the good points they make. None of the advice here has been bad , it is just the damn tone that people, like me, are taking exception to. There is a right and a wrong way to talk to peole and to me a lot of this has been harsh, which delutes the sound content of what is being said. In other words, say it nicely and stop shouting in this man and his wife's face.

No, it does not have to be fru-fru and smarmy, that is worse, but it could be offered in a more constructive way.

Thanks PF. I think I let my emotions get a little carried away in my reply to Jasonmh. I've tried to take the high ground and, despite my wife's protestations, I've gotten down in the mud. You expressed my feelings much more eloquently and professionally. My apologies to the Board