Descend to Decompress???

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Nor would 99.9999% of divers...ever need to take action in the Missed deco(safety stop)/fast ascent theory. I've seen the results a million times (or maybe a couple of thousand) and never been able to attribute any of the 200 or so cases of the bends I've seen during recreational diving to missed deco(safety stop)/fast ascent. Nor could I point my finger at a missed deco(safety stop)/fast ascent to a case of the bends. The point really is moot.....

Which nicely addresses the OP's initial questions :)
There is never a reason (IMHO) to re-descent following a recreational dive unless the diver is symptomatic,

I think that's the debate that the OP wanted. Whether re-descent could prevent (as opposed to treat) DCS.

IMHO, I agree with you - I don't see a benefit for re-descending, given the tolerances in recreational dive planning/management.

I also believe that re-descent would be unlikely to resolve any bubble formation, which may have occurred on the fast ascent. At the worst, I believe it'd contribute to bubble growth and potential migration, rather than reduction. My layman's understanding/assumption is.....

In a nutshell, rapid and sustained ascent can caused bubble formation. In most instances, on recreational dives, those bubbles are likely to remain non-symptomatic - therefore, not a problem. Re-descending will shrink those bubbles, due to ambient pressure, not through dissipation. Off-gassing only occurs as pressure is reduced, not increased. Increased depth adds pressure inside the given volume of the bubbles, causing them to grow larger when the diver eventually ascends. Once shrunken, it they pass more easily through tissues into body tissues and systems they wouldn't otherwise be able to reach - bubbles may meet and coalesce - forming bigger bubbles. The combination of increased bubble volume through extended on-gassing, and the risk of bubble migration/coalescing increases risk to the diver that otherwise non-symptomatic bubbles could develop into symptomatic ones.

In contrast, aborting the dive after a fast ascent, and conducting a protracted ascent pause at safety stop depth will temporarily halt bubble expansion, whilst providing the necessary pressure differential to begin off-gassing and bubble dissipation. Meaning smaller bubbles.

That said, I've never heard any educated reasoning which explored the specific concept. I'd certainly be interested in hearing a deco nerd explanation of why it'd be beneficial/pointless.

...then there is not a reason to re-descend, treat the diver accordingly. Modern computers will not clear following a rapid ascent or surfacing in deco by descending.

Absolutely. There is very clear guidance on DCS first-aid treatment and protocols. In virtually any instance effecting a recreational diver that guidance is completely sound. The same is true for virtually every tech diver - for whom only a very rare combination of circumstances would necessitate ad-hoc IWR as being preferable to first-aid and evacuation.

So, in answering the OP's question, we find that there is never a reason to descend following a recreational dive. Unless you're ready to dive again. :D

:D
 
The issue is, in fact, arguable. The approved procedures for descending for an omitted stop are covered on pages 33-34 of the 2010 TDI Decompression Procedures manual. Many computer manuals recommend it for omitted required stops; in some models, if you don't do it within a certain number of minutes, the computer will lock you out for 48 hours.

I am not sure I agree that 99.9% of divers will never see a diver return for an omitted stop after losing control of buoyancy and surfacing. It's been a few years, but I've seen it more than a few times.

Notice that I am myself not taking a clear stand in this post. I am just pointing out that this is by no means a settled issue.
 
In a nutshell, rapid and sustained ascent can caused bubble formation. In most instances, on recreational dives, those bubbles are likely to remain non-symptomatic - therefore, not a problem. Re-descending will shrink those bubbles, due to ambient pressure, not through dissipation. Off-gassing only occurs as pressure is reduced, not increased.

But......... those bubbles do not form instantaneously. Takes a couple of minutes at least. That's why commercial/navy divers can blow off large amounts of deco so long as they get into a chamber within a few minutes.

If I blew a safety stop (i.e. popped to the surface from 20 feet after an NDL ascent) I don't see any reason not to go back down to 20 feet again if I can do it quickly,have gas,no hungry sharks etc etc. May or may not have any benefit but I can't see it's going to hurt.
 
The issue is, in fact, arguable. The approved procedures for descending for an omitted stop are covered on pages 33-34 of the 2010 TDI Decompression Procedures manual. Many computer manuals recommend it for omitted required stops; in some models, if you don't do it within a certain number of minutes, the computer will lock you out for 48 hours.

I am not sure I agree that 99.9% of divers will never see a diver return for an omitted stop after losing control of buoyancy and surfacing. It's been a few years, but I've seen it more than a few times.

Notice that I am myself not taking a clear stand in this post. I am just pointing out that this is by no means a settled issue.

We are specifically not discussing missed deco stops, we stopped that with IWR discussion that I believe you wanted to discuss no further. We are discussing missed safety stops/descending following a rapid ascent. First, by definition, a safety stop is not required by any stretch of the imagination for recreational dives. Therefore, missing one incurs no penalty, therefore, descending following a missed one serves no purpose.

I'm betting that you can't find a computer manufactured after 2005 that, if it gives you an ascent lockout for too rapid of an ascent will ever let you clear that alarm by going back down. Uwatecs beep but don't lock up. Suuntos and Mares give you a audible warning, and if you ascend above the mandatory stop depth, lock up and don't clear for a significant penalty. My Shearwater grins and gives me an easily ignored red blinky light, which I'd pay twice as much for if I didn't already have one. I hate racket underwater.
 
But......... those bubbles do not form instantaneously. Takes a couple of minutes at least. That's why commercial/navy divers can blow off large amounts of deco so long as they get into a chamber within a few minutes.

There's a difference between bubble formation and the state when bubbles become symptomatic for DCS. I think it's incorrect to state that "bubbles do not form instantly". They form on ascent, if allowed to.

Commercial/Navy divers form bubbles... the 5 minute window represents the window of bubble growth before they become sufficiently large to be symptomatic. Those divers then re-compress to shrink the bubbles/prevent further bubble growth via application of increased ambient pressure, and remain compressed as they off-gas. Off-gassing occurs because they breath a depressed N2 mix. The bubbles are there, but are never permitted to grow sufficiently large to cause damage.

However, in the chamber they are off-gassing. No more nitrogen absorption.

In contrast, a diver re-descending to depth on air, or nitrox, is on-gassing. More nitrogen absorption.

Shrinking bubbles is one thing. Eliminating them is another. It is that critical difference that separates decompression from recompression.

Imagine it as a two-stage process:

1. Increased pressure (re-descending/going in a chamber) shrinks/prevents growth of bubbles. This stops bubbles from damaging the body. Nothing more.

2. Creating differential in PPN2 across the lung barrier (i.e. breathing oxygen), allows nitrogen to leave the body. This eliminates bubbles, by dispersing them and saturating them back into body fluids, allowing transport by cardio-vascular system to be expired by the respiratory process.

Breathing oxygen (process 2) is the most effective manner to eliminate bubbles. Only if bubbles are symptomatic (causing trauma/injury) do they need to be compressed.

If a diver is not symptomatic of DCS, then they do not need to compress (or recompress) anything. They do, however, need to eliminate nitrogen, to prevent further bubble growth. Elimination is not caused by compression.

Thus, the most effective method to prevent bubble growth, where bubbles have formed, but are not causing damage, is by breathing high O2%. Descending to depth simply increases the PPO2 of nitrogen breathed/absorbed. That's an own goal.

If I blew a safety stop (i.e. popped to the surface from 20 feet after an NDL ascent) I don't see any reason not to go back down to 20 feet again if I can do it quickly,have gas,no hungry sharks etc etc. May or may not have any benefit but I can't see it's going to hurt.

Because you'll be absorbing more nitrogen. Like every diver does on every dive. Nitrogen absorption is the opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

This is getting more firmly into 'bubble theory' of decompression - but you're incorrect to assume that you don't have bubbles after a fast ascent, or any ascent for that matter. They're just not symptomatic for DCS. Adding more nitrogen can make them symptomatic.

Either way, blowing a safety stop is unlikely to cause DCS. Descending to 20 feet is unlikely to contribute to presentation of DCS. I'm talking about substantial fast ascents from recreational bottom depth, with accumulated bottom time... and re-descent to significant depth (which is the scenario that the OP postulated).
 
I've recounted this before on SB, but this is the optimal place for it.

Back in the mid 90's, when George and Bill and I were still doing deep air dive, but would soon be switching to trimix.....for the deep air we were using the proceedure of Blow and Go at the end of a dive...the purpose to eliminate a huge additional decompression duration by all the time spent going from the bottom to 100 foot depth.... We had done 280 feet on the Rb Johnson/Coryn Chris, and at 25 minutes, were were all assembled together, all giving A OK that we were good to go. There were about 8 of us on this dive, one was a tech diver from England, visiting. He was using a new BC that had a bogus dump valve, but no one knew this yet.

On the signal to head up, we all fully inflated our bc's and began rocketing upward to the ceiling of 100 feet deep. The speed was intense. The OVP valve's on the BC's were screaming with ear shattering volume, and a wall of bubbles chased us from below....like being on top of lava on it's way to being ejected from a volcano :) But faster :)

As you rocket upward, there is no difficulty keeping sufficient exhalation volume going, as the pressure differences are not so huge in each 30 feet you travel at this depth. We would have our eyes glued to depth guage/computers, to know about when to begin a massive venting of all air in our BC's. At about 140 we began venting, and the English guy near me was having trouble. I saw this, as did one other diver. I Vented all air, easily, and grabbed on to the English guy to make him heavier and help prevent him from blowing through the 100 foot ceiling. The other diver did this as well. Unfortunately, the English guy had one of those incredibly stupid 100 pound lift BC's, unlike the 40 pound lift models we used....the positive lift on his BC was so intense, that even as I pushed my feet on top of me and began swimming him down with over a 30 pound force, all 3 of us found ourselves on the surface about 6 seconds later.

It was a shock, but flashing in my head was the portion of the Navy Mixed Gas manual, that had discussed bubble formation, and hypersaturation. It specifically pointed out that in a scenario like this, there would be 2 or 3 minutes before the hypersaturation would have the bubbles forming, and I instantly realized it would be life threatening to remain on the surface for even a few seconds.....I told the english guy to use his knife on the bc and puncture it, and we would all meet at 100 feet. I and the other assisting diver then did a rapid weighted descent to 100 feet, where we stopped and saw the english guy reach us about 10 seconds after we reached the stop point.

George and Bill and the others all started making hand gestures to the English guy, mostly about if he was OK now, but also about the BC. No one was happy, but we decided to stay at 100 for 5 minutes instead of the one we normally spent there, and then did all our normal 50 foot time, 40 foot stop time, 30 foot stop....all normal for air profile. At 20 feet we switched to our O2 ponies ( 30 cu ft bottles). This was also normal for all these air dives, and the 3 of us used all the O2 in our bottles, as apposed to just 15 minutes as was more normal, if I remember correctly. We got out after everyone else, but each of us felt entirely normal, if not invigorated and energized, as always after one of these deep dives with O2 deco at the end. Whether the O2 deco, or lingering effects of the nitrous oxide from deep air the previous hour, we would always feel like kids on their Junior prom night when we were getting back on the boat.

So my thoughts on this thread...Had we not gone back down and recompressed, I think all would agree we would have suffered catastrophic DCS and likely died. Had we not all gone back down INSTANTLY, we would have suffered catasrtrohic DCS. Had we not had the O2 bottles with us, the outcome may have been very different, meaning much worse---However, if there had been all the bubbling suggested in much of this thread durring the rapid ascent, we would NOT have made it to the 20 foot stop with all the long air stops we did at 50 feet, 40, and 30 feet. The bubbles would have been so out of control by then, that we should have been incapacitated before reaching the 20 foot stop. In fact, we felt entirely normal, although significantly nervous and tentative, as we were going on a theoretical , that none of us had ever heard of being tested.

As a useful piece of theoretical discussion here, I think this applies to air and Nitrox divers in their depth ranges, and has no bearing whatsoever on Trimix divers, as Helium would NOT stay in solution in the blood on such an ascent, as air is capable of doing ( hypersaturation would have occurred well before hitting the surface had we been on trimix).

I realize this flies in the face of much accepted agency teaching. This was a factual occurrence, with many witnesses, and it is very relevant to the understanding of the phenomena being discussed in this thread. I think it would be negligent of me to withold the re-telling of this account, just because it may not mesh well with Agency positions at this moment in time.
 
It is not 100% on point with the discussion, but ianr's post above reminded me of reading about the US navy decompression is the "old days". The divers would come up, take their hard hats and lead boots off and get bundled into the a chamber to decompress. The cut-off time that they were trained to beat was 8 minutes from breaking the surface to sealing the chamber. And these were serious deco obligations.
 
It is not 100% on point with the discussion, but ianr's post above reminded me of reading about the US navy decompression is the "old days". The divers would come up, take their hard hats and lead boots off and get bundled into the a chamber to decompress. The cut-off time that they were trained to beat was 8 minutes from breaking the surface to sealing the chamber. And these were serious deco obligations.

Old days ? This is still standard procedure on surface supplied air dives. The interval to strip and hit the bin is 4 minutes.
 
Mark Andrew had a very similar incident on his 150m air dive many yrs ago. Apparently his bc/AIR 2 was/were jamed and couldn't vent the air. So he missed all/most of the deco stops. The bc was eventually ruptured at around 20m(?) but he was still propelled to the surface! The support divers immediately took him down to recompressed. He survived with nothing more than a bruised lung!!
 
My first thought was that if you were diving air you would more than likely end up loading more nitrogen and possibly make a rough situation worse....... maybe you wouldn't have enough bottle to even touch the required obligation, I don't know... hopefully someone can chime in here on this! My second thought brought me to the idea that if you had been diving air for your dive but had a nitrox bottle onboard with you and switched out and went back down, you could go down to a safe depth for your mix and start the decompression there and work your way up from there making a few stops every 5 - 10ft with the extra oxygen. Would this help your situation or still make it worse? Obviously, the overall best option is to get to a chamber as quick as you can, but in this thought I was having, the situation had you a long way from a chamber....

i guess we first would have to distinguish between recreational diving and tec diving. in recreational diving you clearly shouldn't experiment with the whole inwater decompression since you do not have the training needed as an all overruling fact, secondly you would not know how deep you can/have to go to start offgasing appropriately (since therefore you would need to have a deco-schedule or a computer telling you this) and as a last point you most likely would not have the right mix of gases available (since you would certainly not be able to climb on the boat, get an other nitrox-tank and redescend in the short amount of time you mentioned).

since i just did my tec- and trimix-course (read my article about it on my website if you're interested about my thoughts on the experience) the emergency-scenarios for cases like that may include redescent and decompressing on different gases on different deco-schedules from the ones you planned for in the first place. again, these are EMERGENCY-scenarios for TEC diving qualifications and have to be considered COMPLETELY independently from what ever you have been taught in any recreational diving course so far!

by far the best choice would be the one where you go back to the boat, tell what just happened and get the highest possible amount of O2 (ideally pure oxygen) and get to the nearest chamber to have yourself checked.
 
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