Depth: 95 ft, In Deco, 500 psi, No Buddy

[dumpsterDiver]

Ya that's what it looks like. I was wondering what that 3 meant - how does it come up with time to surface? I don't think that's air integrated - maybe it's a suggested ascent rate? Anyone know?

Update: Here's what the VEO 2.0 manual says about that 3 minute number:

* TAT includes stop times of all required deco stops plus vertical ascent time based on the max rate allowed. (not sure if it takes into account safety stops?)

So basically he needs to last at least 3 minutes like that w/ 500 psi. Either way, I can't imagine being at that depth with that little air left.

Once you go into deco, my computer does not add in safety stops to the Time to Surface number.

Well one of the main reasons I made this video is exactly that, to help new divers IMAGINE what it would be like to be that deep with not a lot of air. You really should be able to envision exactly what you would do if you found yourself in that situation.

For example, you could have a stuck spg and it shows 1000 psi for "too long' and then you tap it and suddenly the needle drops to 500 psi. It is better to run these sort of scenarios through your brain, rather than say.. "i won't let that happen to me". Or,,, You could be crawling in a little cave or something and accidentally purge the octopus when you pin it to the bottom and dump a lot of air really fast before you identify and remedy the problem. all of a sudden you go from a comfortable 1,200 psi to 500... Still no need to panic.

 

[uwxplorer]

I have a problem with the "lesson" supposedly taught to novice divers.
If I transpose it to skydiving, you essentially opened up your chute shortly after noticing you were 1,000 ft up, not panicking, and still had plenty of time to land safely. The key was to not panic and deploy the chute as you normally do.
Or to (loosely) quote a video I used in another thread: "we always plan for a good day"... with predictable results on a bad one.
Not panicking is a cardinal rule of diving (stop, think, act), sure. However, it is not sufficient if you are not paying any attention to the other rules (among which, plan your dive and dive your plan). Your video doesn't show what would have happened if you'd panic, which a novice diver WILL most probably do, nilly-willy; it doesn't take into account the fact that you had a pretty large tank (for which 500 psi represents a sizable amount of gas), that you had a pony bottle (even larger reserve) and the situation was perfect. As I said, that it was a good day.
The problem with this demonstration is that it is impossible to easily extrapolate to a different situation due to the very nonlinear nature of the problem. So 500 psi at 95 ft that day for you may have been fine, but this might be what killed a diver at Farnsworth a few years ago (who may very well have not panicked until it was too late), or a young lad at Eagle Reef on Catalina Island not so long ago. Ergo, in my opinion, this is pretty irresponsible to post by a former instructor, because it could be misused by a real novice diver.
Don't put yourself in such a situation, because today may very well not be a good day. And rules have not been designed to keep you safe on good days. They will get you out of any dive, any day.
Sorry for the moralizing tone, but there is such a thing as unintended consequences...

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I am not sure what data you use to determine that a novice will Panic in that situation.

I wonder which is more irresponsible. Showing a diver ascending from 100 ft with 500 psi or teaching uncertified divers that they can swim alone to the surface from 60 ft with ZERO air ...Like PADI does.. they still teach that a cesa is a viable option and tell the students not to panic. Yes??

 

[Coztick]

DD isn't suggesting noobs like me should push NDL's. He was just demonstrating that a very short obligation will generally clear during a prompt, normal accent. No reason to panic and risk injury.
If you can't apply common sense, don't dive.

 

[uwxplorer]

DD isn't suggesting noobs like me should push NDL's. He was just demonstrating that a very short obligation will generally clear during a prompt, normal accent. No reason to panic and risk injury.
If you can't apply common sense, don't dive.

You are unwillingly proving my point.
There could be serious reasons to be VERY concerned at 95 ft with 500 psi and deco obligations (or without, as a matter of fact), and adopting a relaxed "I will do like dumpsterDiver did and calmly ascend normally" might very well seriously injure or kill you.
Your gauge could be wrong, your tank will probably have a much smaller capacity and leave you with 0 margin in a normal ascent from 95 ft, you could have a much larger SAC rate than him (or than your usual self), conditions could be much more challenging than those he encountered, etc... A novice diver has by definition very little experience to integrate all these factors and act appropriately, and taking this video as instructional is foolish.
Had dumpsterDiver demonstrated the innocuity of a 1 min deco obligation at 60 ft with 1,000 psi of reserve, I would not have bothered.

Regarding CESA, yes, you need to know that it is possible to survive in dire straits and how to do that. You could have a burst low pressure hose and loose your air in no time, your buddy frolicking 50 ft away from you, and knowing that you can go up chanting "Ah..." while trying to go up no faster than your bubble could save the day. I sucked at it and almost drowned at the surface (drop the goddam weights! not in a class), but at least I know this is an option.

 

[CuzzA]

You are unwillingly proving my point.
There could be serious reasons to be VERY concerned at 95 ft with 500 psi and deco obligations (or without, as a matter of fact), and adopting a relaxed "I will do like dumpsterDiver did and calmly ascend normally" might very well seriously injure or kill you.
Your gauge could be wrong, your tank will probably have a much smaller capacity and leave you with 0 margin in a normal ascent from 95 ft, you could have a much larger SAC rate than him (or than your usual self), conditions could be much more challenging than those he encountered, etc... A novice diver has by definition very little experience to integrate all these factors and act appropriately, and taking this video as instructional is foolish.
Had dumpsterDiver demonstrated the innocuity of a 1 min deco obligation at 60 ft with 1,000 psi of reserve, I would not have bothered.

Regarding CESA, yes, you need to know that it is possible to survive in dire straits and how to do that. You could have a burst low pressure hose and loose your air in no time, your buddy frolicking 50 ft away from you, and knowing that you can go up chanting "Ah..." while trying to go up no faster than your bubble could save the day. I sucked at it and almost drowned at the surface (drop the goddam weights! not in a class), but at least I know this is an option.

No offense, but you're kind of trolling him. He pretty much said your exact words in his OP.

Certainly it is NOT recommended or safe for recreational divers to push the limits or go into deco and they probably should be saving more air for the ascent as well. Many people are taught the simplistic rule of: be on the boat with 500 psi – which may be inadequate.

 

[uwxplorer]

No offense, but you're kind of trolling him. He pretty much said your exact words in his OP.

Indeed. As I could have added, in my hypothetical transposition to skydiving that you should deploy your chute way above 1,000 ft, but I am just showing you the video of my buddy screwing up to demonstrate that you can survive the exercise if you don't panic. Except that you could very well not in other circumstances.
In other words, "do what I say, not what I do".
Great teaching method with guaranteed results.
I have seen what that results in in technical diving (where people are supposed to think for themselves) and unfortunately, time and again, lack of discipline enforcement shown by the instructor can result in the death of the student down the road (way past the time they consider themselves students, which we really all are for the duration of our diving career).
Anyway, enough trolling.
Dive safe.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Indeed. As I could have added, in my hypothetical transposition to skydiving that you should deploy your chute way above 1,000 ft, but I am just showing you the video of my buddy screwing up to demonstrate that you can survive the exercise if you don't panic. Except that you could very well not in other circumstances.
In other words, "do what I say, not what I do".
Great teaching method with guaranteed results.
I have seen what that results in in technical diving (where people are supposed to think for themselves) and unfortunately, time and again, lack of discipline shown by the instructor can result in the death of the student down the road (way past the time they consider themselves students, which we really all are for the duration of our diving career).
Anyway, enough trolling.
Dive safe.

Apparently your comprehension of the situation is lacking.

What I did was wear a pony bottle, If the "hypothetical student" was actually emulating me by wearing a pony bottle AND consumed the 500 psi in the primary (large) tank, they would still have more than enough gas to make a safe ascent using just the pony bottle.

Your assumption/conclusion that the situation I actually placed myself in was precarious or dangerous is off the mark.. by a considerable degree. How much clearer can I make this?

 

[uwxplorer]

It's perfectly clear. You are addressing your video to novice divers diving down to 95 ft with a LP108 and a pony bottle...

 

[Coztick]

You are unwillingly proving my point.
There could be serious reasons to be VERY concerned at 95 ft with 500 psi and deco obligations (or without, as a matter of fact), and adopting a relaxed "I will do like dumpsterDiver did and calmly ascend normally" might very well seriously injure or kill you.
Your gauge could be wrong, your tank will probably have a much smaller capacity and leave you with 0 margin in a normal ascent from 95 ft, you could have a much larger SAC rate than him (or than your usual self), conditions could be much more challenging than those he encountered, etc... A novice diver has by definition very little experience to integrate all these factors and act appropriately, and taking this video as instructional is foolish.
Had dumpsterDiver demonstrated the innocuity of a 1 min deco obligation at 60 ft with 1,000 psi of reserve, I would not have bothered.

Regarding CESA, yes, you need to know that it is possible to survive in dire straits and how to do that. You could have a burst low pressure hose and loose your air in no time, your buddy frolicking 50 ft away from you, and knowing that you can go up chanting "Ah..." while trying to go up no faster than your bubble could save the day. I sucked at it and almost drowned at the surface (drop the goddam weights! not in a class), but at least I know this is an option.

Ok, the video demonstrates that the deco time incurred at depth clears during a prompt accent. The demo was performed safely. What ifs are a different topic...
This is why I brought up common sense.
I also carry a pony at least or sm doubles on every dive for the what ifs.
I'm sure DD wasn't suggesting anybody dive beond their comfort level. Just the opposite. It's people that get too comfortable in this hostile environment that run low on gas below 90 ft.
I've only got 80 dives and I've seen it too often. Buddy's trying to out last the other. I saw this more as an emergency procedure than good practice.