Defective o-ring (and reg service kit parts in general) -- how common?

[Bigbella]

It is a bold assumption that the kits are packed by humans, and even so, it is an even bolder assumption to that those packing the kits are aware of what they are used for and that molding marks would be an issue.

There's nothing bold about it.

I had the chance of visiting a foreign manufacturer, in Italy, years ago; and there was a station, where the service kits were hand-packed; and there were perhaps a dozen or more Rubbermaid-type containers, brimming with various o-rings and other parts. Three people were engaged in packing them, in plastic containers -- none too quickly -- no big whoop.

Many manufacturing sites are much, much smaller, far funkier, and modest in size than their pompous ads at dive stores -- "Deep Down You Want the Best" -- would ever suggest.

I'll always recall seeing an old dude, dragging an unwieldy acetylene set-up across a linoleumed factory floor, in what appeared to be an old lady's flower-patterned, collapsable shopping cart . . .

 

[Lorenzoid]

@Zef , I agree with @Bigbella . I don't know how many regulators Edge-HOG sells, but it's not like they're Scubapro. I wouldn't be surprised if the service kits are put together in the USA, and not by the hundreds per day but maybe dozens, by a single person. Part of their job should be looking at the parts. It doesn't take much skill to spot an o-ring with bumps. The bumps can easily be felt with a gloved hand.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

@Zef , I agree with @Bigbella . I don't know how many regulators Edge-HOG sells, but it's not like they're Scubapro. I wouldn't be surprised if the service kits are put together in the USA, and not by the hundreds per day but maybe dozens, by a single person. Part of their job should be looking at the parts. It doesn't take much skill to spot an o-ring with bumps. The bumps can easily be felt with a gloved hand.

Well then be shocked, surprised, astounded, and stunned!

They are not put together in the US. They are assembled at the factory overseas by people who may have no idea what they are for and just do what they are told. "Put this many of these in the bag."

How many do they get in at a time? Hundreds. Easily. Several times year. HOG has been selling the D1 for nearly 13 years now. Thousands are in use and they are still selling them.

Did you call your dealer? If not, why not? Had I been the one who sold you the kit, you'd have had a replacement in the mail immediately at no charge and I would have used your photo to get them to send me a replacement for the kit I'd have sent you at no cost. They have done it before for me when something was funky. Rare but it happens. What O-ring is it? Did you contact your dealer for a replacement? I've ran into a couple of minor issues with kits over the years. An extra O-ring, three HP hose O-rings instead of two, one with a mold mark on the seam, and one that looked fuzzy. No big deal. I called HOG and got a replacement kit. These experiences are with literally hundreds of kits over the last 12 years I've been servicing mine and 8 years teaching servicing of them.

Like Tbone said, it happens.

The same parts are used in a number of different regs for different companies. Depending on who in the world is distributing the parts, there may be some substitutions on what they need to have in them. HOG supplies three replacement port plug O-rings. The same kit for a company selling a reg in Europe may want to supply 5 or none.

A production line produces them, they go into bins designated for that reg and distributor, then the bags are tagged with the label. Maybe. Some are sent out with no label because they are going to a brand that only supplies to dealers or one dealer and there is no need to put a fancy label on. I've picked up kits over the years that just had a label that said "RG-12" on it. Got it with some stuff from a defunct shop. Knew it was a first stage kit because of the diaphragm.

So what actually changes is the label on the bag. They are assembled by the hundreds per day as a result. I don't do reg service full time, but in the last three months thanks to many people not being able to dive, I've gone through several dozen kits for D1's, D3's, and D2's as well as second stages.

I work in a machine shop that does DoD and Aerospace production. Some of the work we do is 100% inspection. Most is sample inspection. Dictated by the customer or our own internal policy. It could be 1 per every 20 to 1 per every 250 or 500 depending on the contract. Do things slip through? Yes. A blip in the feed line for the abrasive on the waterjet can make a part out of tolerance on one edge but you won't see it. The CMM will if that part happens to be scheduled to be checked. If not, it will go out and we may have to make a replacement if the customer spots it.

 

[lexvil]

they're molding marks, they're not terribly common but they got past QA, it happens.

People often wonder why o-rings for the military are so expensive, and part of it is because every single o-ring is visually inspected by an operator to make sure they don't get in. It's not cost effective to do that and the computers usually don't miss, but every once in a while they will

When I was fixing submarines every o ring was not only inspected but individually packaged with all compound and cure date info, each opened pack had to be turned in with the completed job package. It seems like overkill but the Navy appears to not want their subs to sink.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Thanks, Jim. That's enlightening. So the same kit, more or less, is sold to different companies. I was thinking this was a HOG QC issue, and that maybe it's time to switch to Deep6, but their kits may very well come from the same source!

I haven't yet contacted the dealer I bought them from, DRIS, because my first instinct was to contact Edge-HOG, which I did yesterday by email and have not heard back from yet. I'd be glad to stop by their facility in Macon and pick up an o-ring the next time I pass by on my way to Florida. (It's Part No. 26, 019-70 o-ring). I have absolutely no doubt DRIS would have something in the mail for me immediately if I went that route. But it really isn't DRIS's fault, and I feel sort of connected to HOG from having taken their service class. In the class, Jack Schmidt was adamant that if we ever needed anything, just contact him. And the last time I serviced my regs I indeed got some help from him with something.

I've been thinking about this, and I find it a little ironic that the service manual and the class instruction are peppered with dire warnings (red print!) about if you do this or that step incorrectly, you risk injury or death, yet it seems the service kit is far from guaranteed to be in good order. I exaggerate only slightly when I say we are cautioned that if our finger so much as leaves oil on the precious soft seat that's included in the kit, or you nick something with an o-ring pick, or your torque wrench isn't perfectly calibrated, accidentally use an o-ring of the wrong durometer, use too much or too little lube, etc., you could die. I realize that the warnings are for legal protection, but I would think it also makes an impression on readers, especially non-professional (read: naive) reg servicers like me. With all those warnings in my head when I'm working on my regs I almost feel like I'm defusing a bomb Mission Impossible-style. On one hand, one just might feel it's implied that the service kit is put together with the same level of care and caution evidenced in the manual and the class that teach you to use that kit. On the other hand, I suppose it could be argued that someone who has completed the service class is now charged with the knowledge of looking out for and spotting defective parts.

By the way, I originally bought the regs from you--two sets of doubles regs--and they were assembled and tuned just right and worked flawlessly right up until the first service interval. (Plug for @Jim Lapenta and the venerable HOG D1)

 

[Zef]

When I was fixing submarines every o ring was not only inspected but individually packaged with all compound and cure date info, each opened pack had to be turned in with the completed job package. It seems like overkill but the Navy appears to not want their subs to sink.

The level of scrutiny that everything gets in the submarine sector of the US navy is beyond compare. I spent a couple of years stationed at the Submarine base in Groton CT, I understand the mentality behind SUBSAFE.

-Z

 

[Bigbella]

I exaggerate only slightly when I say we are cautioned that if our finger so much as leaves oil on the precious soft seat that's included in the kit, or you nick something with an o-ring pick, or your torque wrench isn't perfectly calibrated, accidentally use an o-ring of the wrong durometer, use too much or too little lube, etc., you could die. I realize that the warnings are for legal protection, but I would think it also makes an impression on readers, especially non-professional (read: naive) reg servicers like me . . . On the other hand, I suppose it could be argued that someone who has completed the service class is now charged with the knowledge of looking out for and spotting defective parts.

That Mission Impossible "bomb going off" sensation will eventually fade, with time and experience.

There are a number of safeguards during the course of a repair / rebuild, that all but ensure success by its incremental completion. It's the proper fit -- the click -- of hard seats; of springs and the proper fitting and flex of diaphragms, during the course of assembly. Then you have the added security of adjusting a, hopefully, stable IP, within factory specs; and determining what may have gone wrong, if that may not be the case.

What was most eye-opening to me, was the slack-jawed simplicity of manufacturer's courses and its refreshers. For all of the "negligence at any step can cause serious injury or even death" ethos, at least, in the manuals, there were plenty of mouth-breathers, who passed the course . . .