Deep stop question

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... None of this is an exact science...
We tend to want to be precise, and the more technical the dive, the more precise we tend to want to be... unfortunately for us, reality flies in the face of precision :) My approach is to remember that the practical application of any decompression algorithm is akin to "measuring with a micrometer, marking with chalk and then cutting with an ax." My rule of thumb is to add a Pyle stop if the algorithm calls for an initial shallower stop, and to lengthen stops shallower than 30 feet from a little to a lot, depending on the day and the site (how I feel & what there is to see)... works for me :)

... Above about 25 feet it is not possible to get bent,even if you stay there a week...
Not to shave a nit too closely, but it ain't necessarily so. Here's a blurb on a fairly recent Australian study on the subject, and I've attached an article from Steve Phillips that is on my "required reading" list for shallow water divers.
Rick
 

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2. But a tissue start to off gass, i.e. the partial pressure in the tissue decrease, when the nitrogen partial pressure in the tissue is less than the nitrogen partial pressure in the breathing gas.

I think you miswrote this -- You offgas when the the pressure of nitrogen in what you are breathing is LESS than the pressure present in the blood.

Redrover, yours is a very good question, and really, nobody has an answer for it. We all need to remember that the models we are using for decompression are precisely that -- mathematical MODELS of gas transport. They have been figured out using very good physics, but not by putting probes into people and measuring nitrogen tensions in various tissues at various depths. (Thalassamania tells me the Navy has done some of that, actually, but those results aren't available to the general public.) There is a lot about decompression that is not well understood. A really interesting educational resource is GUE's "Mysterious Malady" DVD, which consists of interviews with people doing active research on decompression, but I can boil it down to one sentence: There's a lot we don't know.

The whole idea of deep stops is still a little controversial. The original decompression profiles came out of a pure dissolved gas model. Using that, you want to push the gradient, or difference between inspired and tissue gas tensions, as high as is tolerable, and then sit there and offgas. These "Haldanean" profiles use a relatively rapid ascent rate to shallow depths, and then do long decompression periods there. The depth of the first stops were designed to reach the maximal gradient where significant bubbling wouldn't occur.

But then we found out that everybody bubbles, even using those profiles. At that point, people began to look hard at bubble formation and bubble behavior. The nice thing about bubbles is that they can be detected and measured in live people without sticking anything in them (by the use of Doppler imaging). Because of this, a fair amount of work has been done to look at various ascent strategies and their affect on Doppler-detectable bubbles. The Marroni papers on the DAN site are a couple of those studies. (Unfortunately, the number and size of intravascular bubbles detected by Doppler hasn't correlated nearly as well with symptomatic DCS as one would hope.)

Using bubble mechanics introduces the idea of deeper stops and slower ascent rates. You're basically keeping the bubbles small by the use of higher ambient pressures. (Small bubbles are more likely to collapse than to grow.) The problem with this approach is exactly what's bothering you: Staying too deep, too long results in ONGASSING, at least in some compartments, rather than offgassing. Complex algorithms have been derived to try to create ascent profiles that combine good control of bubbles with efficient offgassing, and it is still quite controversial and open to extensive argument as to which is the best, if any. (Good discussions about this on TDS, with the authors of some of the algorithms weighing in.)

For recreational profiles, the DCS rate is so low that it's really hard to see the effect of deep stops (or safety stops). As Dr. Sawatzky observed in a piece in Diving Magazine, the biggest reduction in DCS came with Haldane's original observations, and much of what we have done since is trying to fine tune the last 5%.

I think it's fairly safe to say that, within recreational gas supply limits, time spent above 30 feet is all decompression time (unless, of course, that's your max depth for the dive!) In other words, at the end of a deeper dive, you can spend as much time as you like between 30 feet and the surface with incurring any greater gas load that you need to worry about, and in fact, depending on the profile, you may be offgassing most all compartments during this time.

For dives where significant time is spent deep, a stop at half maximal depth is probably beneficial. I believe this is what NAUI is now teaching for their recreational divers. Significant offgassing usually begins around 2ATA above the bottom depth, and for recreational dives, this turns out to be very close to half the max depth. Precisely how long this stop should be, I don't think anybody really knows. From there, you can proceed to the shallows at a controlled rate, and spend the rest of your time there.

This, of course, does not jibe with a terrain-based ascent, which frequently more closely resembles the 10fpm continuous ascent that was found NOT to be ideal in Marroni's studies. Terrain-based dives (and especially the ones I've done in the Islands) often spend more time deep (defined as between max depth and 2 ATA shallower) than one would want to do if one used max depth and ran a decompression software program to design one's ascent. But the difference there is that you haven't dived a square profile. At least in my experience, most of the deep Hawaiian dives spend very little time at max depth -- maybe one or two minutes -- before beginning to work their way upslope. At this point, you have to try to figure out what your true "max depth" for gas loading purposes is. Depth averaging almost has to come into play here, but it can be difficult and may not be very accurate when the depth of the dive is continuously changing. No program designs an ascent for a dive where the whole dive is an ascent!

Anyway, don't know if this has been helpful (I know it turned out to be long!)
 
I think you miswrote this -- You offgas when the the pressure of nitrogen in what you are breathing is LESS than the pressure present in the blood.

You are correct that I miswrote but I didn't try to say what you wrote either.

You must be correct in a sense but the equation used in cacluations is using the difference between

(partial pressure of nitrogen in the breathing gas)-h20 pressure= partial pressure of nitrogen in the alveoli and the partial pressure in the tissue as the driving force for on or off gasing.

I dont know what is actually happening in the blood but I dont believe that it is modeled in the theory.

Some thoughts. If blood is considered to be the fastest tissue, 5 min for nitrogen, then is the slower tissues depending on the pressure in the blood and not the pressure in the alveoli as the theory assumes. Is this true or is the blood considered instantaneous?
 
(partial pressure of nitrogen in the breathing gas)-h20 pressure= partial pressure of nitrogen in the alveoli and the partial pressure in the tissue as the driving force for on or off gasing.
I think Lynne is saying the same thing except she ignored the partial pressure of water vapor most likely for simplicity sake.
 
... Some thoughts. If blood is considered to be the fastest tissue, 5 min for nitrogen, then is the slower tissues depending on the pressure in the blood and not the pressure in the alveoli as the theory assumes. Is this true or is the blood considered instantaneous?...
The "5 minute tissue" isn't blood... it isn't anything - but a theoretical construct that seems to work :). The selection of 5 minutes as the fastest theoretical tissue in models that use half-time compartments is a practical rather than a reality based choice, as faster tissues just sort of take care of themselves at the ascent rates we use.
However... back to your point...
Obviously, intuitively, real tissues that are distant from the lungs are going to be effectively slower due to the transport mechanisms involved, even if they would be quite quick if exposed to the gas directly. And variable!
With this in mind, let's take a little trip into cold water on a warm day with a reasonably distant (gas transport wise) hand. At the beginning of the dive our gas transport mechanism is pretty efficient, and will tote the nitrogen to the hand easily, where the joints and tendons and muscle and ligaments and nerves will ongas at a decent rate. Over the course of the dive the hand cools, the blood vessels constrict, and the flow rate - and gas transport efficiency - decreases, so that by the time of the ascent we may have changed the effective compartment half-life of the various hand tissues by a factor of some significance; since our tissues ongassed at a faster half-time rate than they can offgas, the theory gets skewed. It also gets skewed with other factors like exercise and hydration, etc...
Long story short, it is apparent that every dive is its own reality. Most of the time I can get away with a fairly large violation of a table, but prudence dictates sticking to whatever profile I've chosen to use, and, depending on conditions, cranking in some additional conservatism... sometimes a lot of additional conservatism.
Rick
 
Long story short, it is apparent that every dive is its own reality.

So true! Too many variables, and we probably don't even know what some of them are. As a former mathematician, I'm acutely aware of the fact that a model is only as good as the understanding of the process you're trying to model. If you don't even know what the pertinent variables ARE, the model is going to be fairly primitive. And honestly, that's where we are with decompression. It's kind of amazing that it works as well as it does, really.
 
Here is a real simple way to run your deep stops for NDL dives:

First stop 50% of your max depth for 1 minute
Second and consecutive stops 10' shallower for one minute each. Very simple but it requires that you make sure your brain is plugged in to the computer feedback loop. Some computers such as some Sunnto's have a deep stop option but I find it is easier to do this in my head as I am diving. Many people will recognize this as the GUE "min deco". Regardless of what you think about what agency, the procedure is straightforward. I personally have experienced less symptoms of sub clinical DCS such as headaches after repetive dives on liveaboards etc. Remember that your ascent rate should be no more than 30 feet per minute at any time. (IE: from the max depth to the first deep stop)

EG: Dive to 80 ft: first deep stop at 40' with an ascent rate of 30 feet per minute. Second deep stop at 30', then 20', then 10'. The one minute stop is actually composed of a 30 second hold and a 30 second slide to the next depth. Ideally, if one was truly skilled, the entire process would be a continual slide from 40' to the surface but having set points is easier to manage. I often incorporate a more traditional 3 minute stop at 20' if I have been doing repetitive dives or my average depth was closer to 100'. Just my choice here but not necessary if you do the deep stops correctly. Very easy stuff and if your brain is really switched on you can do this while you ascend along a reef. Remember this is the minimum deco and if you chose to spend longer in the shallows after you have done the deepstops, have fun looking for juvenile smoothskin trunkfish.:)
 
We tend to want to be precise, and the more technical the dive, the more precise we tend to want to be... unfortunately for us, reality flies in the face of precision :) My approach is to remember that the practical application of any decompression algorithm is akin to "measuring with a micrometer, marking with chalk and then cutting with an ax." My rule of thumb is to add a Pyle stop if the algorithm calls for an initial shallower stop, and to lengthen stops shallower than 30 feet from a little to a lot, depending on the day and the site (how I feel & what there is to see)... works for me :)

Rick

I think this is an important consideration. If the deco plan is too precise, complex and is something that is different for every dive (computer schedule, custom tables etc.) then it increases the likelihood that the actual profile is not going to match the calculated deco profile very well.

I prefer to do it the other way -- impose a simple but realistic deco plan that's repeatable and that I am in charge of, and is something that can be acheived. Yes, you could say it's not 100% perfect for any single dive, but neither is a plan that is too complex to actually dive ...
 
Hello redrover:

Slow ascents are generally better than fast ones. It makes little difference whether you are creeping up a slope or slowly ascending a vertical rope.

Med

I am afraid that the meds that I take for post surgical neck pain allow but only the briefest of answers. Sorry about that for - I guess – a few weeks.

Dr Deco :doctor:
 
I think you miswrote this -- You offgas when the the pressure of nitrogen in what you are breathing is LESS than the pressure present in the blood.

Redrover, yours is a very good question, and really, nobody has an answer for it. We all need to remember that the models we are using for decompression are precisely that -- mathematical MODELS of gas transport. They have been figured out using very good physics, but not by putting probes into people and measuring nitrogen tensions in various tissues at various depths. (Thalassamania tells me the Navy has done some of that, actually, but those results aren't available to the general public.) There is a lot about decompression that is not well understood. A really interesting educational resource is GUE's "Mysterious Malady" DVD, which consists of interviews with people doing active research on decompression, but I can boil it down to one sentence: There's a lot we don't know.

The whole idea of deep stops is still a little controversial. The original decompression profiles came out of a pure dissolved gas model. Using that, you want to push the gradient, or difference between inspired and tissue gas tensions, as high as is tolerable, and then sit there and offgas. These "Haldanean" profiles use a relatively rapid ascent rate to shallow depths, and then do long decompression periods there. The depth of the first stops were designed to reach the maximal gradient where significant bubbling wouldn't occur.

But then we found out that everybody bubbles, even using those profiles. At that point, people began to look hard at bubble formation and bubble behavior. The nice thing about bubbles is that they can be detected and measured in live people without sticking anything in them (by the use of Doppler imaging). Because of this, a fair amount of work has been done to look at various ascent strategies and their affect on Doppler-detectable bubbles. The Marroni papers on the DAN site are a couple of those studies. (Unfortunately, the number and size of intravascular bubbles detected by Doppler hasn't correlated nearly as well with symptomatic DCS as one would hope.)

Using bubble mechanics introduces the idea of deeper stops and slower ascent rates. You're basically keeping the bubbles small by the use of higher ambient pressures. (Small bubbles are more likely to collapse than to grow.) The problem with this approach is exactly what's bothering you: Staying too deep, too long results in ONGASSING, at least in some compartments, rather than offgassing. Complex algorithms have been derived to try to create ascent profiles that combine good control of bubbles with efficient offgassing, and it is still quite controversial and open to extensive argument as to which is the best, if any. (Good discussions about this on TDS, with the authors of some of the algorithms weighing in.)

For recreational profiles, the DCS rate is so low that it's really hard to see the effect of deep stops (or safety stops). As Dr. Sawatzky observed in a piece in Diving Magazine, the biggest reduction in DCS came with Haldane's original observations, and much of what we have done since is trying to fine tune the last 5%.

I think it's fairly safe to say that, within recreational gas supply limits, time spent above 30 feet is all decompression time (unless, of course, that's your max depth for the dive!) In other words, at the end of a deeper dive, you can spend as much time as you like between 30 feet and the surface with incurring any greater gas load that you need to worry about, and in fact, depending on the profile, you may be offgassing most all compartments during this time.

For dives where significant time is spent deep, a stop at half maximal depth is probably beneficial. I believe this is what NAUI is now teaching for their recreational divers. Significant offgassing usually begins around 2ATA above the bottom depth, and for recreational dives, this turns out to be very close to half the max depth. Precisely how long this stop should be, I don't think anybody really knows. From there, you can proceed to the shallows at a controlled rate, and spend the rest of your time there.

This, of course, does not jibe with a terrain-based ascent, which frequently more closely resembles the 10fpm continuous ascent that was found NOT to be ideal in Marroni's studies. Terrain-based dives (and especially the ones I've done in the Islands) often spend more time deep (defined as between max depth and 2 ATA shallower) than one would want to do if one used max depth and ran a decompression software program to design one's ascent. But the difference there is that you haven't dived a square profile. At least in my experience, most of the deep Hawaiian dives spend very little time at max depth -- maybe one or two minutes -- before beginning to work their way upslope. At this point, you have to try to figure out what your true "max depth" for gas loading purposes is. Depth averaging almost has to come into play here, but it can be difficult and may not be very accurate when the depth of the dive is continuously changing. No program designs an ascent for a dive where the whole dive is an ascent!

Anyway, don't know if this has been helpful (I know it turned out to be long!)
My feeling is you’ve complied, ok simplified, OK already, dummied it down enough and as much as it can be….I think what you (and a couple others) said is the gist of what I was able to conclude from the papers I struggled so with. Thank you, I feel better about my planning. Gut instinct seems to have its place when dealing with all my variables. The time notations, very useful folks, that’s what’s bothered me the most.


Lynn, any chance you could point to some specific threads where "Good discussions about this on TDS, with the authors of some of the algorithms weighing in"? (They let me in now. :D )
 
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