Deep diving advice that goes against conventional thought?

[PfcAJ]

You don't have to respect it, but it goes on all the time. As for managing being drunk behind the wheel, the law, in my state, allows you to do just that as long as the blood alcohol is below .08%.

so that makes driving with a +BAC less than .08 ok?

 

[Bob DBF]

so that makes driving with a +BAC less than .08 ok?

As I said, according to state law.



Bob
-----------------------------
I think that advocating unsafe and dangerous practices is both stupid and foolish. That is why I don't tell people to do what I do. Dsix36

 

[PfcAJ]

What about according to common sense? Screw the law if you get into an accident and kill someone, which is exactly what you're more likely to do with a BAC at .02, and it gets WAY worse when you hit .05. Both are below the legal cutoff.

As is the same with diving. Folks are hard pressed to show me incidents involving diving deeper than 100ft with an END less than 100ft, regardless of what some agency has to say about it.

Seriously, show me some examples of where I'm wrong. Deaths of divers with a depth deeper than 100ft, END less than 100ft. I'll be here, patiently waiting. Surely someone will deliver?

 

[Akimbo]

…If you can't see the obvious safety benefit of a commercial operation and all the accoutrements involved vs what normal tech divers have, I don't know what to say. The gas effect is the same, sure, but the peripherals are what makes the difference...

You should re-read DCBC’s posts again. I saw no hint of confusing the science and the hardware.

 

[PfcAJ]

Yes, in-fact Table 6A (USN) requires that the Diver breathe 100% O2 for 25 minutes (then a 5m Air break before it's repeated) at a PPO2 of 2.8 ATA (approx 60 FSW).

---------- Post added March 12th, 2014 at 04:12 AM ----------



As you're well aware, Commercial Divers have worked (and continue to work) underwater all over the planet (for millions of hours) at a depth between 150 and 200 FSW breathing Air. They're not just undertaking a dive, but complete work which is required to be completed to specs (they can't be narced out of their mind). These Divers have been trained to do this work and I think that this is something to keep in-mind. People are capable of breathing Air safely in 200 FSW.

Often I hear the advantages of mix and that some divers brand any dive to 150 FSW without it as foolhardy and shake their head. That's just crap. What needs to be realized is that training, experience and the diving conditions are variables in determining what is and is not safe.

I'm not advocating Deep-Air for the beginner, or to anyone without proper training. That said, I've taught mixed-gas for 40 years. It seems that today people feel that MG is a passport to diving deep without sufficient experience, knowledge or fitness. There is much more to a 300'+ dive than what you're breathing.

Uhh, yea. Commercial divers have FAR more resources than Diver Dave does. Apples to oranges here. And that's always the same old argument. "Commercial divers do it all the time!". Who gives a baker's %$^& what commercial divers do? Its not applicable to recreational diving. People go to 60' in a chamber on o2 (and DCBC loves to point out), also. That's a different set of circumstances than scuba. And I don't care what Navy seals do, either. We're not seals. We're not commercial divers. The things those guys do are completely out of the realm of recreational diving and it really has no bearing for anyone other than commercial/military divers.

 

[DCBC]

Nah, I won't respect the idea that people can "manage" being drunk behind the wheel. Sorry. Nor will I respect the (false) idea that if you make it home after drinking and driving, that you were safe. Nope. I also won't respect a training program that suggests that being drunk is something that you can "handle", so its ok to drive. I have no respect for the advocation of recklessness in this day and age. We know better.

First of all, there are people who I'd rather dive with at 200 FSW on Air than others on Trimix at the same depth. They pose less of a danger and are not as reckless.

If you dive Air to 50 FSW, your performance is affected as a result of IGN (concluded in a number of studies at DCIEM; which I was personally involved in). Another study that was published in Undersea Hyperbaric Medicine (May-Jun;33(3):197-204) entitled 'Recent neurochemical basis of inert gas narcosis and pressure effects' (Rostain, J.C., Balon, N.) IGN was found to start affecting performance at 0.3 MPa (approx 60 FSW).

By-the-way do you use mix in 60 FSW? You wouldn't dive impaired now would you???

As you've insinuated that I dive recklessly (routinely diving over 150 FSW on air); perhaps you might provide me with some substantiation. Please describe the extent of my IGN symptoms at 150 FSW on Air and then compare them to yours at 50 FSW.

You seem to think that I'm drunk and reckless. You claim to know something and I'm interested in the validity of the insight that you apparently possess.

According to your logic, anyone who participates in activities including:

1/ Air diving past 50 or 60 FSW;
2/ Cave Divers;
3/ Wreck Divers;
4/ Decompression diving (didn't you say you use Trimix?); and
5/ Ice Diving
6/ Uses a CCR

are diving recklessly, as they are taking unnecessary risks.

Just so there's no miscommunication, perhaps you could outline what diving activities are acceptable to you and which you believe compare with commiting a crime (like driving drunk). Of the activities I've listed, which ones do you allow the diver to make their own choices and which ones do you decide what's acceptable?

For the record, I do not drink and drive; as I do not believe that it's my right to endanger others. Nor do I encourage others to do so. On the other-hand, I do believe in individual rights (like choosing the diving equipment and gas the diver wants to use and conducting the dive as the diver sees fit).

I encourage people to dive within their safe diving limit and I acknowledge what this limit is will vary from one person and another. It is not my position to belittle others for the choices they make. This is especially true when there are certification agencies offering Deep-air courses and insurance companies insuring their Instructors for teaching them.

---------- Post added March 13th, 2014 at 03:27 PM ----------

...We're not commercial divers. The things those guys do are completely out of the realm of recreational diving and it really has no bearing for anyone other than commercial/military divers.

People from all walks of life are involved in recreational diving (including people that dive with the military/commercially). In-fact 66% of the last 3 posters have military/commercial experience (some of those which you've called irresponsible).

 

[tomfcrist]

Uhh, yea. Commercial divers have FAR more resources than Diver Dave does. Apples to oranges here. And that's always the same old argument. "Commercial divers do it all the time!". Who gives a baker's %$^& what commercial divers do? Its not applicable to recreational diving. People go to 60' in a chamber on o2 (and DCBC loves to point out), also. That's a different set of circumstances than scuba. And I don't care what Navy seals do, either. We're not seals. We're not commercial divers. The things those guys do are completely out of the realm of recreational diving and it really has no bearing for anyone other than commercial/military divers.

So are we talking about recreational diving now? I thought we were talking about deep air advise that goes beyond conventional wisdom.....which is not recreational diving by definitions set by the industry. As far as not being Navy seals....speak for yourself, as there are a few on here. With that being said, I have conducted dives for fun that were 10 times more complex and more inherently dangerous than anything I have done for the Navy.

 

[DCBC]

In-fact 66% of the last 3 posters have commercial/military experience (some of those which you've called irresponsible).

Correction: make that 75%

 

[PfcAJ]

So are we talking about recreational diving now? I thought we were talking about deep air advise that goes beyond conventional wisdom.....which is not recreational diving by definitions set by the industry. As far as not being Navy seals....speak for yourself, as there are a few on here. With that being said, I have conducted dives for fun that were 10 times more complex and more inherently dangerous than anything I have done for the Navy.

recreational as in 'for fun' vs military and commercial.

And guess what? If you came on here and started advocating the high ppo2s that seals allegedly dive for recreational divers, I'd say the exact same thing I say to the commercial diving group. Its non applicable to recreation scuba.

DCBC, once again you've got it wrong. I feel that people who dive deep with an END higher than ~100' are reckless, and the higher the END the more reckless it is. Same with people who don't run lines in caves. Or violate thirds. Or RB divers who don't follow checklists or maintain their units. Or people who don't follow a min gas. Or deco divers who don't have a plan. I know nothing about ice diving, so I can't comment, but it seems that its at least superficially similar to cave diving (thirds, line to surface). I could go on. The activity itself (diving deep) isn't where I take issue. What I take issue with is the idea of "tolerance" and "handling it". Its LITERALLY the exact same things drunk folks say. And the best part is that its a self assessment of your level of impairment..while impaired! Genius! That entire thing is bonkers to me.

Like I said before, show me the deep accidents with a low END. That's all you've gotta do. Give me two. Easy as can be for someone with the depth of knowledge that you have of all things scuba, right? But I doubt you can. That's how I came to the conclusion that its the high (>100) END thats the deal. Not ENDs in the 50s or 60s, but nice try though.

 

[DCBC]

recreational as in 'for fun' vs military and commercial.

What has been said repeatedly is that what a person does for a living doesn't necessarily matter. People are recommended to dive within their personal safety envelope. Some divers have more training and experience than others. They don't leave this at home when they dive. There are many divers who have never dove with the military or commercial sector who have substantial diving experience.

It doesn't matter if I wear a hat or a mask, if I dive to 20 FSW looking at fish in warm water or am in saturation; I'm the diver who must make certain decisions during a dive. Sometimes that's to thumb the dive because I don't feel comfortable with IGN, or a host of other things. It's a judgement call that only the diver can make.

And guess what? If you came on here and started advocating the high ppo2s that seals allegedly dive for recreational divers, I'd say the exact same thing I say to the commercial diving group. Its non applicable to recreation scuba. It has to do with the experience, training and personal assessment of the situation and not what someone does for a living.

I agree; however what someone does for a living may be directly applicable to their training and experience. I don't think that anyone is advocating high PPO2s for anyone.

I only know what I'm capable of (on a good day and I scrap the dive if it's not). No one has the ability to define someone's safe diving envelope; that's up to the individual. I can certainly make recommendations, but am fully aware that I don't control the actions of other certified divers.

...I feel that people who dive deep with an END higher than ~100' are reckless... What I take issue with is the idea of "tolerance" and "handling it".

You 'handle IGN' when diving in 50 FSW on Air. It's all a matter of degree of acceptable exposure. Personal genetics, tolerance, experience, training whatever you want to call it. Diver performance is affected by IGN differently, at different times. Each person determines their limits for themselves and runs their dive accordingly.

Its LITERALLY the exact same things drunk folks say. And the best part is that its a self assessment of your level of impairment..while impaired! Genius! That entire thing is bonkers to me.

No it's not. One is a crime, the other is a choice. One may endanger others who are oblivious to the danger, the other doesn't. Don't compare someone to a criminal for exercising a legal right.

Like I said before, show me the deep accidents with a low END.

Do you really need me to look these up for you? There are deep accidents on Trimix, Heliox and CCR in-which IGN has nothing to do with the cause of death.

Are there Deep-air accidents? Sure. Are there accidents using mix? Sure. Accidents in Caves? Sure. So what's your point? All of these activities carry enhanced risk. The diver accepts the level of risk s/he feels comfortable with. That's their right in our Society. Laws are made to curb behavior (like drunk driving). Hell, you don't even need to be certified to dive and you want to invoke depth limits for people using Air who are certified divers? All based on the choices you have made?

The diving industry only has recommendations. It's up to the individual to use his best judgement. You might disagree with the level of risk people take when diving Deep-air or entering a Cave, but it's not your call to make.