Deco Regs and O2 Cleaning

[espenskogen]

Well, I can see what's written (and I've been aware of what had been written there). What's written doesn't necessary have to be true and doesn't necessary have to reveal all facts. If you had experience in regulator servicing you would be able to evaluate this issue better.

Maybe. But a little knowledge can be dangerous. And those that think they're finished learning are not finished learning - Just Finished.

My point is that unless you can look at the O2 kit and tell me that the bits in the O2 kit are identical to the bits in the reg already, then I'd rather go with the manufacturer recommendations. In fact, I'd go with the manufacturer recommendations ANYHOW.

(Because when you think of it - The O2 kits costs peanuts, so it's not a major revenue stream for Apex. So the reason they are shipping them must be because they want to minimize their liability. And this by its very nature would imply that there isn't a difference there.)

The problem of course being:
Apex says there is a difference. You say there isn't.
If Apex is wrong - No problem - You would have spent $50 to upgrade the reg to O2 service unnecessarily.
If you're wrong - BIG PROBLEM. Fire, drowning, death..

Maybe if you had experience in Regulator Manufacturing, you'd understand the issue better.

 

[MonkSeal]

My point is that unless you can look at the O2 kit and tell me that the bits in the O2 kit are identical to the bits in the reg already, then I'd rather go with the manufacturer recommendations.

That's what I suggested - check the o-rings.

Because when you think of it - The O2 kits costs peanuts, so it's not a major revenue stream for Apex. So the reason they are shipping them must be because they want to minimize their liability. And this by its very nature would imply that there isn't a difference there.

Well, O2 kits (as well as other Apeks kits) don't cost peanuts. Maybe it's not major revenue stream for Apeks but it is for shops that service regs. BTW 2nd stage service kit (which contains several o-rings valued few cents) cotsts between 8 and 12 € (10 -15 $).

Apex says there is a difference. You say there isn't.
If Apex is wrong - No problem - You would have spent $50 to upgrade the reg to O2 service unnecessarily. If you're wrong - BIG PROBLEM. Fire, drowning, death..

I'll take my chances Again, I didn't recommend to use reg out-of-the-box for high O2 mixtures - I recommend O2 cleaning. If you don't know how to do it, let qualified person to do it.

However, you made a good point in one of your previous posts "Each to their own".

Safe diving

 

[espenskogen]

That's what I suggested - check the o-rings.


Well, O2 kits (as well as other Apeks kits) don't cost peanuts. Maybe it's not major revenue stream for Apeks but it is for shops that service regs. BTW 2nd stage service kit (which contains several o-rings valued few cents) cotsts between 8 and 12 € (10 -15 $).


I'll take my chances Again, I didn't recommend to use reg out-of-the-box for high O2 mixtures - I recommend O2 cleaning. If you don't know how to do it, let qualified person to do it.

However, you made a good point in one of your previous posts "Each to their own".

Safe diving

I understand your point of view, and if you want to dive with an out of the box reg, that's cool. My guess is that it will be just fine.

However, as a general recommendation to divers buying their first deco regs for rich mixes, I'd still recommend playing it safe. The way I see it, for an experienced tech diver, should a deco reg blow at a stage, then it shouldn't be too difficult to dump the bottle, and go back to backgas, but taking the chance just adds one more thing to go wrong on a dive which already would be littered with risks. (As any overhead dive is).

There are also other factors in play here - If you have a look at the Poseidon Extreme range of regs, they are all the exact same regulator. They all come O2 clean out of the box. And still, the Extreme Deep, Duration and Dive are labled Nitrox compatible up to 50% whilst the Extreme Deco is compatible to 100%.

Why? Because CE Standard requires the labels apparently. I don't think this is the case with the Apex regs - But who knows - It is certainly possible.

 

[MonkSeal]

I understand your point of view, and if you want to dive with an out of the box reg, that's cool.

I've never stated that. My recommendation is O2 cleaning as it was stated in previous post.

However, as a general recommendation to divers buying their first deco regs for rich mixes, I'd still recommend playing it safe.

I suggest that deco reg for high O2 mixtures should be recommended (buying, handling, etc.) by tech instructor.

The way I see it, for an experienced tech diver, should a deco reg blow at a stage, then it shouldn't be too difficult to dump the bottle, and go back to backgas ...

Blown reg on deco tank is difficult situation for any diver.

There are also other factors in play here - If you have a look at the Poseidon Extreme range of regs, they are all the exact same regulator. They all come O2 clean out of the box. And still, the Extreme Deep, Duration and Dive are labled Nitrox compatible up to 50% whilst the Extreme Deco is compatible to 100%.

We were discussing Apeks.

Why? Because CE Standard requires the labels apparently. I don't think this is the case with the Apex regs - But who knows - It is certainly possible.

Let's keep discussion out of regulations and laws stuff. Otherwise you'll soon find out that (according to newly proposed Europian laws) high O2 regs (or AFAIK any nitrox reg) are supposed to have different thread then standard DIN.

 

[espenskogen]

I've never stated that. My recommendation is O2 cleaning as it was stated in previous post.

I realize that - I'm actually supporting your point of view here - I would probably be doing the same thing with my Poseidon regs.

I suggest that deco reg for high O2 mixtures should be recommended (buying, handling, etc.) by tech instructor.

Not a bad idea

Blown reg on deco tank is difficult situation for any diver.

Yes, but one we're trained to deal with. It's not that unusual that you crack on a stage bottle, and the reg just freeflows. That doesn't mean you blow your deco.

We were discussing Apeks.

Yes - We were - I'm just suggesting that in some cases, a limit is set because a regulator tells the manufacturer that a limit has to be set. (Like canned food - It could probably last for hundreds of years, but according to regulations, it have to have a best before date.)

Let's keep discussion out of regulations and laws stuff. Otherwise you'll soon find out that (according to newly proposed Europian laws) high O2 regs (or AFAIK any nitrox reg) are supposed to have different thread then standard DIN.

This is actually implemented in Germany already, and it's a royal pain in the backside for anybody ordering high mix regs from say Scubastore in Spain. Aqualung for example will no longer supply the O2 clean calypso in the UK, because in Europe it's sold with a different thread. Rather than running two threads in parallel, they've just pulled it from the UK market. (Or so I was told anyhow.)

Fortunately, the UK has not picked up on it - Mostly because it's a ridiculous regulation.

 

[rgbmatt]

Aqualung/Apeks service kits do use O2 compatible parts, and their regs are assembled with Christolube. Aside from the green accents, there is no physical difference between the O2-clean versions of the DS4 or Calypso and the regular models. The difference is that the O2-clean regs are apparently assembled in a "clean room" at the factory.

To render these regs even more immune to litigation, Aqualung (in the US at least) doesn't sell service kits for the O2 regs. To maintain warranty, they must be sent back and serviced by the manufacturer.

Of course, you (or a local shop) can clean an Apeks reg and rebuild it with a regular service kit. It will be, for all intents and purposes, safe for O2. However, using it for a high-O2 mix goes against the manufacturer's recommendations and you won't be protected in case there is an accident.

Of course, I'm not affiliated with Aqualung - this is just what the local sales rep has told us. As with everything in diving, there's always a balance between conservatism and practicality and I can't blame diving companies for covering their butts.

 

[Greg Barlow]

If you have a look at the Poseidon Extreme range of regs, they are all the exact same regulator. They all come O2 clean out of the box. And still, the Extreme Deep, Duration and Dive are labled Nitrox compatible up to 50% whilst the Extreme Deco is compatible to 100%.

In the original owners' manuals Poseidon specified nitrile O-rings in the Deep version. They used Viton in the Duration and Deco. Of course, this may have changed since the original printing.

Greg Barlow

 

[VinceDS]

I would say yes - have the regs cleaned for O2 if you are going to use them on 50% and 100% deco bottles. You are already going to dedicate these for your deco bottles. I dive APEX ATX50s w/ DS4s on both my 50% bottle and 100% bottle. Every year, I bring them in for service and have them re-cleaned. Costs me roughly $45 per reg. To me, its worth the peace of mind to keep 'Murphy' away...

 

[MonkSeal]

Aqualung/Apeks service kits do use O2 compatible parts, and their regs are assembled with Christolube. Aside from the green accents, there is no physical difference between the O2-clean versions of the DS4 or Calypso and the regular models. The difference is that the O2-clean regs are apparently assembled in a "clean room" at the factory.

Thanks for re-stating these facts. I hope it's clear now, at least for Apeks.

 

[JeffG]

Geeez...I feel bad about just buying regs and sticking them on tanks...50%...100%....BOOOOM...I'm dead LOL