Deckplans of the Spiegel Grove

[netmage]

When I was planning on moving to the area, I dove w/ Scuba-Do and inquired as to a map.... Response was - "one guy made a set - the every op proceeded to rip him up over it...."

The Gove is these ops bread & butter, and they all (Ok - most) cater to the strictly recreational diver - which means no real penetration and no going below the main deck. I asked a few ops - and got a tight lipped - "no" from all. A real shame since even a top down superstructure sketch and main deck layout would be a very beneficial keepsake for the recreational crowd.

Me thinks I'll take wetnotes for some rudimentary tracings every chance I get.

 

[ReefHound]

All I was really wanting is a surface layout or site map. Something that identifies the major features and depths at various points. We don't intend to be penetrating the wreck.

I don't see how such a thing would hurt the dive ops. Anything that raises interest and makes it easier to plan would seem to help them.

 

[mike_s]

When I was planning on moving to the area, I dove w/ Scuba-Do and inquired as to a map.... Response was - "one guy made a set - the every op proceeded to rip him up over it...."

The Gove is these ops bread & butter, and they all (Ok - most) cater to the strictly recreational diver - which means no real penetration and no going below the main deck. I asked a few ops - and got a tight lipped - "no" from all.
.

Well that's why I said that I doubted that Rob Blasser would be much help
to you..... because of that attitude....

All I was really wanting is a surface layout or site map. Something that identifies the major features and depths at various points. We don't intend to be penetrating the wreck.

I don't see how such a thing would hurt the dive ops. Anything that raises interest and makes it easier to plan would seem to help them.

Well they are all afraid that it's going to take money out of their pockets.
They make you buy this stupid $10 token for the "right" to dive her
each year.

Another reason that they don't want you having deck plans is that they
don't want you diving her with a private boat. At one time during the
planning and pre-sinking phase, they even said they were going to put
the mooring bouys 10 foot under water so that private boats couldn't
use them and you couldn't find the wreck. Talk about idiots. Like you
couldn't find that wreck. First all, all you would have to do was look
for all the other boats. Or someone would post the GPS coordinates
on the web and would be easy to find. I'm glad they didn't sink
the bouys though because then private boaters would be dropping
anchor on the wreck causing entanglement hazzards and it could
also possibly drop on a diver.

As for diagrams for dive planning purposes. Glenn Patton has a nice
pic on his site of the ship before she sank and a few depths on it.
It would be of some use. see http://www.glennpatton.com/Spiegel/SpiegelUpright.htm

One other "sneaky way" of getting deck plans is to find out if
she's got any "Sister Ships". (ships that are made off the same
set of plans, with only minor modifications. ) This was very typical
during this time period when the US Navy made many ships of
the same class. (actually it's still typical today). Then you get the
deck plans of the other ship. They will be a very similar match.

The Spiegel Grove was LSD-32, which was part of the Thomaston Class
of LSD's. They were all built by Ingalls in Pascagoula, MS and most
were comissioned within 12-18 months of each other, so they are very similar.

 

[ReefHound]

How does the presence or absence of a site layout cost the dive ops money? How would a diver be any less deterred from diving on a private boat than on a charter? If anything, the layout would be most helpful for a charter trip. The GPS coords were published long ago. Those kinds of attitudes really tick me off.

The medallion is sold by the Key Largo Chamber of Commerce and applies to all divers, on charter boats or private boats. It's a user fee to dive on any of the upper Keys artificial reefs, much like the state requires a fishing license for the "right" to fish in their waters. Of course, enforcement is easier on the charters since the dive op acts as a collection agent and you don't go until you pay.

I knew about the Spiegel's heritage, and my searches for anything in the Thomaston class have also been fruitless. I did find plans for the Anchorage class, which was a heavier and larger successor.

 

[mike_s]

How does the presence or absence of a site layout cost the dive ops money? How would a diver be any less deterred from diving on a private boat than on a charter? If anything, the layout would be most helpful for a charter trip. The GPS coords were published long ago. Those kinds of attitudes really tick me off.

I agree completely.

The medallion is sold by the Key Largo Chamber of Commerce and applies to all divers, on charter boats or private boats. It's a user fee to dive on any of the upper Keys artificial reefs, much like the state requires a fishing license for the "right" to fish in their waters. Of course, enforcement is easier on the charters since the dive op acts as a collection agent and you don't go until you pay.

what's there to enforce? The medallion program is "voluntary". There's not
any law or program to enforce. It was created because the people running
the project went so far over budget, then went over again when they had
to pay $250 grand to put it on it's side after they "flipped" it at the sinking.
This was simply a "fund raising effort". Even the Key Largo chamber of commerce
web site states it's voluntary and a fund raiser. But it was enacted by
"overwhelming consensus" of the dive operators (and the chamber).

I'm just wondering if all that money is being "accounted" for. I'm sure that
the dive operators get a percentage of any medallion they sell, in an effort
to push them selling them.

 

[O.P.]

Part of the reason why it is so hard to find the plans is that they want to limit the number of people penetrating the wreck. By not having the plans, my guess is that the thinking is that less people will be inclined to go inside and get into trouble. If someone were to buy the plans at a dive shop, penetrate and hurt himself that dive shop could risk being sued.
The whole situation is actually debatable. Is it better to have the deck layout to plan your dive efficiently or not having anything and entering with a limited idea where you would end up? I, personnally, would love to get my hand on the plans. If you find them, please post them or send them by PM.

 

[diver doh]

One other "sneaky way" of getting deck plans is to find out if
she's got any "Sister Ships". (ships that are made off the same
set of plans, with only minor modifications. ) This was very typical
during this time period when the US Navy made many ships of
the same class. (actually it's still typical today). Then you get the
deck plans of the other ship. They will be a very similar match.

The Spiegel Grove was LSD-32, which was part of the Thomaston Class
of LSD's. They were all built by Ingalls in Pascagoula, MS and most
were comissioned within 12-18 months of each other, so they are very similiar.

Hmm... seems that Ingalls was bought out by Nortrup Grumman when Northrup or Grumman was on one of their buying sprees.

Anyway, I work for Grumman.. So I will do some surfing at lunch

 

[ReefHound]

what's there to enforce? The medallion program is "voluntary". There's not any law or program to enforce. It was created because the people running the project went so far over budget, then went over again when they had
to pay $250 grand to put it on it's side after they "flipped" it at the sinking.
This was simply a "fund raising effort". Even the Key Largo chamber of commerce
web site states it's voluntary and a fund raiser. But it was enacted by
"overwhelming consensus" of the dive operators (and the chamber).

I didn't know that it was "voluntary" but it's a moot point with me. I'm more than happy to make a contribution to an artificial reef program that is creating such great dive sites.

I have to think though that they could raise a lot more funds by selling T-shirts and site layouts.

 

[ReefHound]

Part of the reason why it is so hard to find the plans is that they want to limit the number of people penetrating the wreck. By not having the plans, my guess is that the thinking is that less people will be inclined to go inside and get into trouble. If someone were to buy the plans at a dive shop, penetrate and hurt himself that dive shop could risk being sued.

Anyone can be sued for anything. I would think the dive op would be in greater danger of being sued by a diver (or his survivors) who got lost in the wreck when the dive op deliberately (and negligently, as a lawyer would say) withheld the plans and layouts that would have allowed him to navigate better.

 

[mike_s]

I can understand that they don't want people to penetrate the wreck
just to reduce the numbe of accidents, but that's not going to stop them.

BUT... they did cut all those huge access points into the hull and decks...
so that if people did penetrate that there would be more than one exit.
(it was also to allow marine life easier access).

Anyway, I don't see how not allowing the deck plans to be "public"
would stop accidents. Dumb inexperienced idiots are going to penetrate
the wreck with or without plans. The people who do penetrate it, at least
the ones with plans have at least thought about a penetration plan and
possible other exits. So this is just narrow minded thinking on
the people who sunk the ship, by not letting people have public access
to the plans.

They might be obtainable by the Freedom of Information Act since the
boat was sunk with funds of which some were "public" (or government
agency). Also the ship was built with public funds. The deck plans
should be considered "not sensitive" anymore by the government
and obtainable.

At least if they don't want to allow deck plans, they should allow/sell
diagrams of the exterior of the wreck, depths, bouy locations, etc
so that SAFE DIVING can be planned correctly. Something like this
on the white plastic waterproof large "cards" would be nice.