Deaths in Tioman

[Ste Wart]

So here are the questions:

1) Did the shop owner know the acrimonious freelance instructor was renting one tank for 4 ppl? Because if he/she did, then the shop owner should bear some form of responsibility as well.

Not really, there is no standard as to how many tanks need to be used during Confined Water, only that a student must assemble/disassemble a set amount.

2) Why were the OW students willing to go with a freelance instructor that is so cheap that only one tank of air was rented and shared amongst 4 people?

In this case Freelance refers to someone renting the tanks from a dive outfit, rather than the person being an independent. Most instructors who visit Tioman with students are tied to a shop in Singapore. At least they were in 2010 when I worked on Tioman

I've seen some and heard some dive outfits in the region that I walk away and shaking my head because of the money grabbing nature of the operators. But this one is definitely the lowest of the totem pole from what I've seen and heard.

It's a sad story, hopefully many will think twice before trying the same.

 

[Zippsy]

Let's wait for an official report, these rumours are giving Diving a bad name....

Now that is funny.

In reply to others, yes there is huge pressure on most dive shops, at least in Singapore, to cut costs. It's not to make a "money grabbing" profit though. If you want your shop to stay open, you either have to have to find a great angle such as convincing students that they will get fantastic service or you compete with 95% of the shops on price. Many places offer courses here for S$500 (US$400) for the whole course including the weekend dive trip, food and accommodation. Despite this, many people here won't sign up for the course because the know that at ADEX in April, shops with offer a 10-30% discount off the normal price. How anyone can teach a course for that price is beyond me. Two pool sessions (S$60), course material and cert (S$120), instructor cost (S$100 for about 13 hours of work just for the pool and theory class), transport to mersing, ferry transport, accommodations for 2 nights, 6-7 meals, 5 tanks, gear rental / depreciation, any overhead, etc.

My wife still has the receipt for her open water course she took in Singapore in 1983. She recalls that it was pretty standard pricing around the few diveshops here at the time. The dives were in Singapore waters at Hantu so no transport to Mersing, hotel or food was provided. The price was S$500. I guess deflation in Singapore over the past 30 years has caused this. Sheesh.

 

[Quero]

I beg to differ: Huge pressure to offer diving certified courses are part of this money grabbing scheme in Singapore and Malaysia. By money grabbing, you can look at it two different ways: Try to make as much money by jack up the profit margin at all cost or try to make as much money by churning out as many certified divers as possible(where the decrease of the profit margin are compensated by volume). And you see some outfits in the region falls into the latter category. The common joke is that PADI stands for Pay And Dive Immediately (for full disclosure, I am PADI certified) but joking aside, I've seen some stuff that I do not like here in the region. There are operators here that I would trust 100% (i.e. the shop that I frequent). But I am not going to say that all the shops here gives me that level of confidence.

I agree in a general way with what you're saying. However, this instructor seems to have been an independent, and given the local culture of seeking out bargains, I would imagine he was offering a very low-priced course. That doesn't excuse him, of course, for putting safety in second place in relation to cost cutting, but I doubt very much he falls into either of the money grubbing categories you describe (increasing the profit margin or volume sales). I see this is as being more of a consequence of cultural norms than of PADI-style scuba education (do we even know he was a PADI instructor?)

 

[dorkito]

In addition to everything else, this makes me think that it's not great to have the alternate on the inflator.


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[WhiteSands]

In addition to everything else, this makes me think that it's not great to have the alternate on the inflator.


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I think its a bad idea, especially when you're an instructor teaching a group of new students to grab the alternate air source while yours is on your inflator hose. Its confusing in an emergency, and the hose is so short, there is no way to do any kind of swimming (e.g. to grab another struggling student) if necessary while sharing air.

 

[redacted]

I think its a bad idea, especially when you're an instructor teaching a group of new students to grab the alternate air source while yours is on your inflator hose. Its confusing in an emergency, and the hose is so short, there is no way to do any kind of swimming (e.g. to grab another struggling student) if necessary while sharing air.

I believe there are quite a few instructors using and teaching with combined octo/inflators. Of course, they teach their students the correct way to use it, not what you described.

 

[Quero]

I think its a bad idea, especially when you're an instructor teaching a group of new students to grab the alternate air source while yours is on your inflator hose. Its confusing in an emergency, and the hose is so short, there is no way to do any kind of swimming (e.g. to grab another struggling student) if necessary while sharing air.

White Sands, that configuration is meant for the donor to use the alternate on the inflator hose and donate the primary. With any standard setup, the hose for the regulator to be donated is typically longer than that the donor breathes from, and this includes both the ordinary recreational primary/backup configuration as well as the standard technical longhose and bungied backup configuration.

Regardless of the configuration, if divers are properly instructed in their use, they should function acceptably well without destroying the equipment in the process.

 

[DiverGirl1972]

I believe there are quite a few instructors using and teaching with combined octo/inflators. Of course, they teach their students the correct way to use it, not what you described.

I would think that a not-yet-certified student who is out of air at depth might not be calmly reflecting back on his/her training... Getting mauled for a reg is one thing. Risking having my inflator/deflator hose ripped off on top of it...well, for me, it just wouldn't be worth the risk if I was an instructor.

 

[Quero]

I would think that a not-yet-certified student who is out of air at depth might not be calmly reflecting back on his/her training... Getting mauled for a reg is one thing. Risking having my inflator/deflator hose ripped off on top of it...well, for me, it just wouldn't be worth the risk if I was an instructor.

Many take the view that the most likely "mauling" by an OOA diver of a rescuer will be going for the regulator in the donor diver's mouth. In that instance, for a donor who as an alternate on the inflator, the response would be to surrender the primary and breathe off the alternate. An integrated inflator/alternate is not intended for use of the OOA diver, and no training regimen would teach an OOA diver to reach for it.

 

[Zippsy]

I would think that a not-yet-certified student who is out of air at depth might not be calmly reflecting back on his/her training...

Then they were not trained properly in confined water. Training programs (PADI, BSAC, NAUI, SSI, etc.) are designed to train students to deal with these types of emergencies if they arise. They are tested for water confidence before they even start and should be weeded out of the class if they can't show they are confortable. Then they should be practicing drills enough that they are second nature so that training automatically kicks in during an emergency. That's the point of the training.

I recall that in my first OW training ocean dive, 30 seconds after descending, my reg was hit out of my mouth and my mask knocked to my forehead by a bobo student. My first thoughts were - in the space of about 2 seconds - "I don't want to die; wait, I am only 10 meters from the surface; opps, that's right, I am not supposed to swim to the surface. I should "stop, think, act". I then recovered my reg, found my mask, replaced and cleared it by the time the instructor looked back at me. That's a result of proper training.