DCS Sensitivity

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Sirto

Contributor
Messages
292
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Location
Anderson, SC
# of dives
200 - 499
My wife and I have been diving for four years and it seems that she is prone to getting DCS. Two years ago in Cozumel she got a case of skin bends at the end of a week of diving (10 dives). At the time we didn't know what it was. She thought it was a rash and it resolved itself in the next couple of days. Last year she got skin bends as well as other DCS symptoms after a week (13 dives) of diving. Her computer showed her within the NDL and myself as well as at least 8 others followed the same profiles as she without symptoms. She did have a relatively rapid assent in the last 10 - 15 feet on a couple of dives. She had two table 6 treatments and all symptoms were resolved.

This year we made 12 dives in the keys over a 6 day period. All of the dives were shallow with a max depth of 45 feet. She did not have any problems on that trip. A few weeks later we went on another trip to the same location as last year. She was determined to do everything right to prevent reoccurance of the bends.

She made sure she was well hydrated, limited her depth and was very careful to make slow assents. She was ususally 10 feet shallower than all the other divers. Her max depth during the week was 75 feet and on that dive she was below 50 feet only about 12 minutes with the bulk of the 60 minute dive between 30 and 40 feet.

After 5 days and 13 dives she again experienced skin bends as well as some pain in the joints and some loss of strength in her left arm and leg. She was treated with a table 6 ride in the chamber which resolved all symptoms but the dr added a shorter 2 3/4 hr ride at 30 ft max the next day just to be sure.

The Dr said that skins bends are not see too frequently. He said he'd treated 800 cases of DCS and her skin bends were only the 4th case he'd seen.

She has an appointment with a dive doctor later this month and we'll see what he has to say. In my mind her options include use of nitrox for anything past 40 ft, limiting her depth to 40 - 50 ft, not diving more than 2 - 3 days at a time, or, giving up the sport altogether.

If we were to try to limit her depth to 40 - 50 foot max will that mean we can only go to a few locations? Bonaire and Curacao come to mind since a lot of the diving is available at theses depths. But, in places like Cozumel it seems that the operators always have the first dive in deeper waters like 85+ feet. Would we be able to arrange trips there such that both dives were shallow?

Are there other locations that would allow this shallow profile?

Are there any other recommendations or comments that might help shed some light on her problem? I've read about PFO but, it sounds like a moot point in that, from what I've read, you wouldn't do anything to repair it if it does exist.
 
Hello Sirto:

DCS Prone?

There is certainly a difference among individuals as to whether they are prone to acquire DCS following diving. Some people are definitely very resistant, apparently to tissue micronuclei formation and, hence, DCS. This can be demonstrated in laboratory tests and the concept of resistance was the basis for the selection tests develop by the Army Air Force to identify qualified crews for high altitude bombing missions in WW II.

Bubble Producers

In laboratory studies, individuals demonstrate a wide difference to both:

-- the ease of decompression bubble production and,
-- the lifetimes of these bubbles in the body once formed.

Skin Bends

The rash typically referred to as “skin bends” is believed by some to have an etiology (cause) in the passage of decompression bubbles, usually through a patent PFO, into the arterial circulation. Dr. Peter Wilmshurst (Shrewsbury, England) has advanced this hypothesis and has treated some patents by a transcutaneous closure of the PFO.

Not everyone with a PFO has a “hemodynamically significant” PFO. The atrial chamber pressures and position of the opening are important for the arterialization process. In addition, one must have gas bubbles, probably many small ones, to have embolizing entities.

Dr Deco :doctor:

Readers, please note the next class in Decompression Physiology is September 10 – 11, 2005 :1book:
http://wrigley.usc.edu/hyperbaric/advdeco.htm
 
Sirto:
I've read about PFO but, it sounds like a moot point in that, from what I've read, you wouldn't do anything to repair it if it does exist.
You must go on the Deco Stop immediatley before dismissing the PFO. Please I urge you to because it can be repaired if it does exist. I'm just not qualified enough to chat about it. However if you PM me I'll get you information for it.
 
I'm actually copying this from another post. (Please don't confuse me as the original starter of it... I did get premission from him prior to posting.)
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I’m writing this because it is my impression that most of you have never heard of a PFO and what can happen to you as a diver if you do have one. I’d like to explain by separating this into 3 parts. 1. What is a PFO? 2. Why does it matter to diving and 3.My experience in repairing the PFO.

What is a PFO?

A little story about how I became aware of the whole PFO issue. When I began diving about 4 years ago, I was introduced to the DIR concepts by my open water instructor, Brandon Schwartz (www.scubaguys.com). I assure you that this is not going to become a DIR rant. I am just filling in some holes in the story. Anyway, Brandon’s emails to me included some interesting (if not colorful!) issues that George Irvine of the WKPP said about diving in general. Some of it was way over my head as I was just certified. Nevertheless, as a student of diving, I found great information among the noise. One of the things I picked up on was this thing called a PFO. George forcefully suggested that any diver should find out if he had this PFO. I believe, in fact, that it was required of all WKPP divers (of which he was director www.wkpp.org ). It was mentioned numerous times in his writing. I later came to find out that it stood for Patent Foramen Ovale.

When you are a fetus in your mother’s womb, your mother’s body does the job of filtering out all of the harmful pieces of material that float around in the blood supply. The BIG reason for the flap is so the blood purposely bypasses the lungs because the fetus's use of the mother's oxygenated blood is how the baby (in effect ) breaths. Your heart has a hole (actually a flap) between the left and right side chamber so that this filtered blood can supply your (the fetus’s) brain. Immediately after birth, this flap is supposed to close. The newborns body is now filtering the “dirty” blood. I say “supposed” because about 30 percent of the population still has this flap or hole. That means that of yourself and your 2 other dive buddies, odds are that 1 of you has this PFO (okay, I’m rounding the numbers).

Why does it matter to a diver?

Remember all those things you learned about safety stops and slow ascents? Well folks, this is where things get tricky if you have a PFO. Let’s say you’ve been down diving for about a half hour or 45 minutes on a pretty reef in the Caribbean. I’m taking strictly recreational diving. After you are done with your bottom time, you have accumulated a fair bit of nitrogen, as I’m sure you remember from your OW class. So you’re told to ascend slowly and do a 3-5 minute safety stop to allow the nitrogen to filter out of your system via the lungs. This nitrogen-laden blood flows thru the left chamber of your heart. There is a wall separating the left and right chambers, and the wall keeps the unfiltered nitrogenous blood from traveling to the right side, which supplies your brain. The problem arises when you have a PFO. The flap I previously spoke about is in this separating wall and is normally kept closed by your blood pressure, but during periods of exertion- like coughing, strenuous movement, or climbing the ladder of a boat- this blood pressure can reduce on the right side for a brief moment and can open the flap that was supposed to be closed. This can allow small nitrogen bubbles to pass to the right chamber of the heart and be fed to the brain. As you can remember from OW class, Boyles Law takes over here. So as you ascend, those bubble grow in size due to the reduce pressure. Large bubbles in the brain material are not good for anyone, and can cause strokes and paralysis. For some this means death.

My experience in repairing the PFO

You might ask-how did I find out that I had a PFO? During a routine cardiology exam, I asked my cardiologist to check for a PFO because of what I had read from George Irvine’s writings. My cardiologist looked at me really funny and asked how I knew what a PFO was, and why it mattered to me. I explained to him what I had learned, and that I did a lot of scuba diving. Then he smiled and began to speak about the implications of the PFO in diving and other sports. He related some stories about previous patients that were not divers, but weight lifters. Some are paraplegics now because of PFOs. It seems that during the lifting phase, the exertion caused the flap to open, and it’s presumed that a piece of plaque or cholesterol passed thru the opening and into the brain. We’re talking a kid in his mid-twenties. Really sad. Getting back to my story, I asked him what it would take to test for this anomaly, thinking there was no way that I would have one of these things. It only happens to other people of course. He suggested an echocardiogram with bubble study. This is a fairly benign test. You lay down and an IV is inserted into your arm. A “wand” is run across your chest that creates ultrasound waves. These are then seen on a monitor by a trained technician. Dyes are injected into the IV and the technician follows the dye into the heart. They then ask you to cough, and try to find out whether the dye went across the wall. Then they inject very small bubbles into your bloodstream and repeat the coughing process. In my case, they could see a few bubbles, but not until after they reviewed the tape later on.

I had left the next day to attend the DEMA show and get in a little diving. Well, I spent about an hour at DEMA and dove the rest of the time, but that is another story! During a surface interval at lunch the next day, I received a phone call from my cardiologist and he told me that upon review of the video, they had seen some bubble pass thru the chamber. In other words, I had a PFO. He believed it was a small one, but told me that I shouldn’t be diving deep. In fact, he suggested that I not dive at all unless I wanted to get it fixed. I was a bit shocked to say the least.

So now what? I had a decision to make, and it involved a lot of variables. How important was diving to me? What are the risks involved with closing this flap? How do you close the flap? Is the surgery worth the risk? I won’t go thru all of the issues that confronted me, but I decided to go ahead with the procedure. It reduced my risk of stoke, regardless of the diving issue. Would I have done this if I were not a diver? Probably not.

My cardiologist recommended a heart surgeon that had done numerous PFO repairs. I wanted someone who was experienced in this. Probing something into your heart is no simple matter. I interviewed the doctor and chose him to repair my PFO. I entered the hospital yesterday at 6am for a 7am surgery. A nurse shaved parts of my chest for the EKG leads, and the upper part of my groin area where they would insert the catheter for the procedure. An IV was started. And I waited. And waited. Turns out there were a couple of emergencies that they pushed in front of me, and I was finally taken into the Cath Lab at 10:30am. I was moved onto the surgery table, and that’s the last thing I remember until I awoke in recovery. Here is what they used to fix the problem: http://www.spencervascular.com/pfoclosure.htm Mine is the device on the right.

For me, there was absolutely no pain involved, other than a slight sore throat from the tubes they inserted during surgery. After you awake and they take you to your room, you are required to lie flat on your back for around 6-8 hours. After they remove the shunt from your leg (around 2 hours in), a heavy sandbag is placed over the insertion area. Their biggest concern is that you don’t bleed from the artery in the groin that they used. I was allowed to get up after 8 pm that nite. Today I feel wonderful. No pain, no soreness. Just some funny looking shaved body parts!

Epilog

I wrote this because I believe that the PFO issue is ignored or glossed over by the dive industry. If 30 percent of the population has this anomaly, and the potential for serious injury or death is high in the diving world, then it would be my conclusion that it should be more in the forefront than it currently is. I can’t speak of every agency, but I know that most agencies do not even mention it in their classes. One can speculate why, but it is my impression that we’re back to a numbers game. Imagine scaring 3 out of every 10 people that come into your class? Worse yet, scaring those that don’t even have the PFO? Unless you test for it, there is no way to know you’ve got it. You’d have people running from this industry. Not good for business. My guess is that the industries response would be that there is no proof that PFOs cause diving accidents. Not surprising, because there is really no way to pinpoint the problem after it happens. How many of the “heart attacks” or “undeserved” hits do we hear about during the year? My guess is that a good portion of these is PFO related. There are just too many of us PFO’ers within the dive population. And ascent rates and buoyancy control are not often highlighted in the industry. There are a lot of potential victims amongst us.

So George, although I’ve never met you, and probably never will, I want to thank you for your teachings and for your insight. I love this sport, but I love my family much more. You have allowed me to enjoy both of them for however long I’m supposed to be around. I may have been okay otherwise, but I’ve now removed one potential obstacle. Maybe thru this long report of mine, someone else who has not heard about this can benefit also.

Thank you,

Jack

PS. If medical doctors would care to add to the description of the anomaly, or to correct anything I’ve written, it would be most appreciated.
 
Dear readers:

PFO

That was an interesting letter posted above with a first-hand experience from a diver. Without knowing anything more than” a few bubbles passing through” it would be hard to say much more.

Scuba Board

I trust that ANYONE who has followed the “Ask Dr Deco” forum for six months knows what a PFO is.

I would also hope that they could be able to reproduce some of the arguments for and against the importance for the recreational diver.

I would hope that they were aware that medical testing is possible and that some form of treatment is now available in the United States (though this is recent). The "spencer" web site listed above is, by the way, the same Spencer from the Spencer Doppler Bubble grading scale. [He was my chief while I was in Seattle years ago.]

Search

If one is interest still, then I would suggest a search of the Ask Dr Deco forum. While not wishing to get feisty here (Did someone change doc’s meds?), it takes time and effort to write this material. Really. And it is all done without any financial remuneration – and it has been for the last five years.

Please do a search under “patent foramen ovale.” There is a lot of material over the last five years. :crafty:

Dr Deco :doctor:

Readers, please note the next class in Decompression Physiology is September 10 – 11, 2005 :1book:
http://wrigley.usc.edu/hyperbaric/advdeco.htm
 
Dr Deco:
Please do a search under “patent foramen ovale.” There is a lot of material over the last five years. :crafty:
Awesome post Dr. Deco - Thanks!
 
mrobinson:
I'm actually copying this from another post. (Please don't confuse me as the original starter of it... I did get premission from him prior to posting.)


Thanks for that posting
 
Sirto:
Thanks for that posting

No

Epilog

I wrote this because I believe that the PFO issue is ignored or glossed over by the dive industry. If 30 percent of the population has this anomaly, and the potential for serious injury or death is high in the diving world, then it would be my conclusion that it should be more in the forefront than it currently is.


beginning of joke

To paraphrase:

30% percent of the NORMAL population is a good market
so that's why the medical industry should ask physicians to make percutaneous closure of the PFO.

end of joke



However we hope there will be no side effects like in other circumstances (I mean drugs)


regards
François
 
i may have gotten skin bends yesterday. i had a rash materialize on my tummy after dive 2. by dive 3 after surface interval of 2 hours between dive 2. after dive 3 i had a bigger more tender rash on my tummy. it was so painful i mistaken it for sunburn. every breath that would contract my stomach would hurt. i then got chills and high fever. next day my fever subsided and my rash is still here but doesnt hurt.

is this skin bends? i was suspecting it but dint exhibit the ach joints or limbs.
 
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