Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[MXGratefulDiver]

Be aware that formal instructors hold sway over SB. You and I are assigned to the rocks unless tied to the mast...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[billgraham]

Someone pointed out technical diving is more dangerous then surfing in reply to my comment. I have surfed various reefs around the world and had numerous close calls by being nearly injured or be put throught the wash. The point I was making is many sports are dangerous that we get involved in, which can be life threatening, yet the majority we do not get 'Offical training'.
Google Dangerous sports - Cave Diving is the only diving that is mentioned in them, common ones involve, climbing, skiing, which yes you can do courses in, but on most of the lists is bike riding!
How many here ride bikes with no 'Official Training'

My arguement was against the idea of 'official training' dicating what you are capable of doing. I for one, read a lot about the sports i do, and research stuff. Diving being one of them. what i mean by research is reading many many articles, training manuals watching videos etc to get a good understanding. research is not reading one blog and taking it a gospal....

I have voiced my views, and to be honest if you dont agree with them is not going to change them and i am going to continue doing what i do because i love doing it.

I've been involved with surfing my entire live, and diving since the mid 90's. To my mind, the two sports are completely opposite. Surfing (unless you're a comp guy) has no rules, no training, you can't take a class (well now you can) and the only regulations are laid down by the local surfers. In surfing, if you stop and think, you're @#%$'ed. If you hesitate at all, you're getting pounded. Any thinking better be done before you paddle out.

Technical diving is completely different. You have to have training, you have to be patient, you have to really think about what you're doing and why. You can't cave dive without training, period. If you do, the strong likelihood is that you will die. You all can try and convince yourself otherwise, but those are the facts.

 

[lowviz]

Excellent, Bob. It really is, after all, why many of us are here.

-a carefully measured response, I look for that in instructors...

---------- Post added December 12th, 2012 at 02:30 PM ----------

Almost forgot to say thanks for sharing your diving knowledge.

And don't fret, Bob. Richard has you beat: http://www.anaspides.net/documents/scuba_diving_documents/Confessions of a Mortal Diver.pdf

 

[Britton]

It's funny that I've just stumbled across this thread in an email of the month's "Top Threads". I guess it is begging a response from me. What makes people want to criticize divers, adventurers, thrill-seekers, or whatever they are, so badly? You can't possibly know what training and experience all divers have and it is not everyone's business to jump in and pass judgement, especially unsolicited. Just because something seems daring to you doesn't mean the people doing it didn't take precautions and didn't have experience that you may not see from the outside looking in. If they are willing to accept the risks and live life as they choose, they are most likely not seeking your infinite wisdom in keeping them from taking such risks. I'm sorry if I sound unappreciative of the advice, but I'm smack dab in the middle of dealing with people posting comments on something they know nothing about.

We maintain a website/blog at www.divingintocruising.com and we often publish videos on YouTube of our dives. We’ve received some flack recently over our “Diving Into Cruising – Paradise Springs” and "Diving Into Cruising - Manatee Springs" videos. Apparently some of the cave diving gurus out there think we’re somehow encouraging divers who lack experience to enter into caves without the right equipment or knowledge to do it safely. The videos we publish are simply to portray our own adventures and share them with friends and family and anyone else who cares to see it. Encouraging OW Divers to go beyond their limits....no, we aren't encouraging anything and anyone who simply watches a video and thinks “Yeah, I can do that!”, Well…best of luck to you. I would think that most people are smarter than that and realize this sport requires some guidance and training. That guidance can come in many forms and doesn't always have to be a "certification course" where you get your pretty picture on a card at the end. Getting the experience is much more important than getting the certification.

These “cave diving experts” who think we broke the code of conduct in diving are looking to see high tech lights, double tanks, and other equipment, that may be nice to have, but certainly isn’t required in order to dive these sites safely. It’s a shame that the diving industry has made this sport so equipment induced and convinced divers that there is a need for so many expensive pieces of equipment for which the purpose of could otherwise be accomplished by simply having the right knowledge and experience. We prefer more of a minimalistic approach to diving. As far as encouraging divers to ignore safety guidelines or extend beyond your level of training, we certainly hope it isn’t perceived that way. In obtaining certification as an OW Diver, you should already know that diving is an inherently risky sport and when you start venturing into cave or wreck diving, the risks grow greater. This is the same with any high risk sport. The grim reaper sign in most caverns/caves does warn open water divers of going any further and before we had the right introduction to cave diving, we never exceeded those limits, even though we had seen videos on YouTube of the exact same site. We had sense enough to know that the people we saw doing it probably had training that we didn’t. Hell, I’ve seen videos of people flying off bridges in squirrel suits, but does that mean I would strap one on and jump not knowing what I was doing…I don’t think so! Remember Darwin’s process of natural selection? “You can’t fix stupid!” But....if I had someone show me a thing or two and teach me about the dangers unknown, I might be up for it!:blinking:

 

[kotik]

It's funny that I've just stumbled across this thread in an email of the month's "Top Threads". I guess it is begging a response from me. What makes people want to criticize divers, adventurers, thrill-seekers, or whatever they are, so badly? You can't possibly know what training and experience all divers have and it is not everyone's business to jump in and pass judgement, especially unsolicited. Just because something seems daring to you doesn't mean the people doing it didn't take precautions and didn't have experience that you may not see from the outside looking in. If they are willing to accept the risks and live life as they choose, they are most likely not seeking your infinite wisdom in keeping them from taking such risks. I'm sorry if I sound unappreciative of the advice, but I'm smack dab in the middle of dealing with people posting comments on something they know nothing about.

We maintain a website/blog at www.divingintocruising.comand we often publish videos on YouTube of our dives. We’ve received some flack recently over our “Diving Into Cruising – Paradise Springs” and "Diving Into Cruising - Manatee Springs" videos. Apparently some of the cave diving gurus out there think we’re somehow encouraging divers who lack experience to enter into caves without the right equipment or knowledge to do it safely. The videos we publish are simply to portray our own adventures and share them with friends and family and anyone else who cares to see it. Encouraging OW Divers to go beyond their limits....no, we aren't encouraging anything and anyone who simply watches a video and thinks “Yeah, I can do that!”, Well…best of luck to you. I would think that most people are smarter than that and realize this sport requires some guidance and training. That guidance can come in many forms and doesn't always have to be a "certification course" where you get your pretty picture on a card at the end. Getting the experience is much more important than getting the certification.

These “cave diving experts” who think we broke the code of conduct in diving are looking to see high tech lights, double tanks, and other equipment, that may be nice to have, but certainly isn’t required in order to dive these sites safely. It’s a shame that the diving industry has made this sport so equipment induced and convinced divers that there is a need for so many expensive pieces of equipment for which the purpose of could otherwise be accomplished by simply having the right knowledge and experience. We prefer more of a minimalistic approach to diving. As far as encouraging divers to ignore safety guidelines or extend beyond your level of training, we certainly hope it isn’t perceived that way. In obtaining certification as an OW Diver, you should already know that diving is an inherently risky sport and when you start venturing into cave or wreck diving, the risks grow greater. This is the same with any high risk sport. The grim reaper sign in most caverns/caves does warn open water divers of going any further and before we had the right introduction to cave diving, we never exceeded those limits, even though we had seen videos on YouTube of the exact same site. We had sense enough to know that the people we saw doing it probably had training that we didn’t. Hell, I’ve seen videos of people flying off bridges in squirrel suits, but does that mean I would strap one on and jump not knowing what I was doing…I don’t think so! Remember Darwin’s process of natural selection? “You can’t fix stupid!” But....if I had someone show me a thing or two and teach me about the dangers unknown, I might be up for it!:blinking:

I saw your video-- and read your self-professed "spirit of adventure and daring" declarations. You have poor technique, you are not equipped with the redundancy required for the cave dive your video in Manatee portrays, you are destructive to the environment, and it's obvious you don't have any business doing what you're so proud of showing everyone there. I almost hate to respond to this since any attention will serve to bump the hits on your video, which I'm sure is exactly what you hope for, but it's too fat of a fruit for me to resist telling you that you're full of it.

 

[Edward3c]

... These “cave diving experts” who think we broke the code of conduct in diving are looking to see high tech lights, double tanks, and other equipment, that may be nice to have, but certainly isn’t required in order to dive these sites safely. It’s a shame that the diving industry has made this sport so equipment induced and convinced divers that there is a need for so many expensive pieces of equipment for which the purpose of could otherwise be accomplished by simply having the right knowledge and experience. We prefer more of a minimalistic approach to diving. As far as encouraging divers to ignore safety guidelines or extend beyond your level of training, we certainly hope it isn’t perceived that way. In obtaining certification as an OW Diver, you should already know that diving is an inherently risky sport and when you start venturing into cave or wreck diving, the risks grow greater. This is the same with any high risk sport. The grim reaper sign in most caverns/caves does warn open water divers of going any further and before we had the right introduction to cave diving, we never exceeded those limits, even though we had seen videos on YouTube of the exact same site. We had sense enough to know that the people we saw doing it probably had training that we didn’t. ...

Whilst I see a fair number of divers going down the Tech route to do what I consider normal diving. I would NOT have done the dive in the video without at least a redundant air source and backup torches. There is a reason cave divers carry so much gas - what would you have done if one of the party's air supply failed at the turn-round point?

 

[TSandM]

These “cave diving experts” who think we broke the code of conduct in diving are looking to see high tech lights, double tanks, and other equipment, that may be nice to have, but certainly isn’t required in order to dive these sites safely.

I think that right there is the essence of Tammi's original post. ALL Scuba diving goes well, until it doesn't. You can get away with diving without any training at all, so long as you are lucky enough never to hold your breath. You can mess around in the front of a high flow cave like Jackson Blue and probably not get into too much trouble. Clearly, you made it in and out of Manatee without killing yourself, and that experience has convinced you that what you did was safe.

It wasn't safe, just like diving without any information is not safe, just like penetrating into a wreck with no training and no line is not safe . . . you may get through it, and perhaps even without incident. But the risks were lurking in the shadows, and you didn't know they were there. The equipment of cave diving has been thought out by people who HAVE run into problems, and have realized that some risks simply aren't worth taking, when they can be easily avoided. The principles of cave diving came out of cave deaths, which could be clearly related to people who dove with inadequate skills, inadequate information, and inadequate equipment. You should read THIS thread about diving in precisely the place where you were. There was a lot of trouble there to get into.

And the "instructor" who took you into cave without cavern training, and without the equipment which, as far as I know, EVERY agency that permits single tank cavern diving requires (at least an H valve and a long hose), should have his instructor's credentials rescinded.

 

[Quero]

<snip>

We maintain a website/blog at www.divingintocruising.comand we often publish videos on YouTube of our dives. We’ve received some flack recently over our “Diving Into Cruising – Paradise Springs” and "Diving Into Cruising - Manatee Springs" videos. Apparently some of the cave diving gurus out there think we’re somehow encouraging divers who lack experience to enter into caves without the right equipment or knowledge to do it safely. The videos we publish are simply to portray our own adventures and share them with friends and family and anyone else who cares to see it. Encouraging OW Divers to go beyond their limits....no, we aren't encouraging anything and anyone who simply watches a video and thinks “Yeah, I can do that!”, Well…best of luck to you. I would think that most people are smarter than that and realize this sport requires some guidance and training. That guidance can come in many forms and doesn't always have to be a "certification course" where you get your pretty picture on a card at the end. Getting the experience is much more important than getting the certification.

Britton, your justifications in this post, in your responses to the critical comments on YouTube, and in your blog serve collectively to form a rather good exemplification of the meaning of "you don't know what you don't know"--a degree of ignorance that can be remedied through appropriate training.

For example, you post in your blog that the "rules" the cave diving community believe you have violated are the ones in the checklist you posted as an image and which I've attached here.



However, these are not the rules they are referring to. There are cave-diving-specific rules that apply when doing dives like the one you filmed through Manatee and for going beyond the grim reaper sign in any system as you did at Paradise. Of course it's possible for you to learn the content of these rules without doing any courses simply by reading, and you can also read all about the losses of life that served as the foundation for the development of these rules. But you cannot learn how to implement the rules safely without instruction that goes well beyond what I consider "guidance" but rather adheres to strict standards of instruction, assessment, and achievement before that pretty certification card is awarded in recognition of the level of excellence necessary to safely undertake cave dives. The dives you did were not safe, even though you survived them.

You accuse those who criticize you of arrogance, but actually the arrogance that is displayed is in you in believing you were sufficiently prepared to do those dives. You risk not only your own life when you dive beyond your training in these caves, but also the well-being of your family (including your young surfer son), as well as the lives of any who may have to enter the cave to attempt a rescue or retrieve your corpse when you get into trouble.

 

[TracyN]

It's funny that I've just stumbled across this thread in an email of the month's "Top Threads". I guess it is begging a response from me. What makes people want to criticize divers, adventurers, thrill-seekers, or whatever they are, so badly? You can't possibly know what training and experience all divers have and it is not everyone's business to jump in and pass judgement, especially unsolicited. Just because something seems daring to you doesn't mean the people doing it didn't take precautions and didn't have experience that you may not see from the outside looking in. If they are willing to accept the risks and live life as they choose, they are most likely not seeking your infinite wisdom in keeping them from taking such risks. I'm sorry if I sound unappreciative of the advice, but I'm smack dab in the middle of dealing with people posting comments on something they know nothing about.

We maintain a website/blog at www.divingintocruising.comand we often publish videos on YouTube of our dives. We’ve received some flack recently over our “Diving Into Cruising – Paradise Springs” and "Diving Into Cruising - Manatee Springs" videos. Apparently some of the cave diving gurus out there think we’re somehow encouraging divers who lack experience to enter into caves without the right equipment or knowledge to do it safely. The videos we publish are simply to portray our own adventures and share them with friends and family and anyone else who cares to see it. Encouraging OW Divers to go beyond their limits....no, we aren't encouraging anything and anyone who simply watches a video and thinks “Yeah, I can do that!”, Well…best of luck to you. I would think that most people are smarter than that and realize this sport requires some guidance and training. That guidance can come in many forms and doesn't always have to be a "certification course" where you get your pretty picture on a card at the end. Getting the experience is much more important than getting the certification.

These “cave diving experts” who think we broke the code of conduct in diving are looking to see high tech lights, double tanks, and other equipment, that may be nice to have, but certainly isn’t required in order to dive these sites safely. It’s a shame that the diving industry has made this sport so equipment induced and convinced divers that there is a need for so many expensive pieces of equipment for which the purpose of could otherwise be accomplished by simply having the right knowledge and experience. We prefer more of a minimalistic approach to diving. As far as encouraging divers to ignore safety guidelines or extend beyond your level of training, we certainly hope it isn’t perceived that way. In obtaining certification as an OW Diver, you should already know that diving is an inherently risky sport and when you start venturing into cave or wreck diving, the risks grow greater. This is the same with any high risk sport. The grim reaper sign in most caverns/caves does warn open water divers of going any further and before we had the right introduction to cave diving, we never exceeded those limits, even though we had seen videos on YouTube of the exact same site. We had sense enough to know that the people we saw doing it probably had training that we didn’t. Hell, I’ve seen videos of people flying off bridges in squirrel suits, but does that mean I would strap one on and jump not knowing what I was doing…I don’t think so! Remember Darwin’s process of natural selection? “You can’t fix stupid!” But....if I had someone show me a thing or two and teach me about the dangers unknown, I might be up for it!:blinking:

I am the furthest thing from a cave nazi that you can get and I can't even say that I should be one to talk, but even I have to say that you guys are not very smart doing the dives you did with the equipment you had. Single tanks and snorkels, really?? I have dove that cave system and it was all I could do to make it to Sue's sink before hitting thirds with double jacked up LP 85's and you guys did it on AL 80's? You guys have no technique and you are trashing the cave. Manatee is a very fragile cave system with rocks that will break off if you look at them wrong. I myself have taken criticisim in my cave training that I moved to fast. At the time I didn't take heart what other more experienced cave divers were telling me. Knowing what I know now I should never have passed my cavern class let alone my first cave class and I have to say they were right. I'm still refining skills that I should have had mastered. I got humbled last week by a very skilled and knowledgeable instructor regarding my reel skills. That was an eye opener. I have had a few close calls where things had the potential to go very wrong and it was by the grace of God nothing did. You guys are attempting dives with little or no training and have no idea what could go wrong. I think your instructor is not the best person to be teaching you cave diving as what he's doing is violating training standards. I would highly suggest getting the proper training and equipment before continuing to cave dive. Think about the risk you will be putting the recovery divers in when they have to remove your bodies or the dive sites that will get closed down because some untrained divers were stupid enough to attempt cave diving without training, giving the cave community a black eye.

 

[redacted]

When you complete training, do you know what you don't know? Does the instructor know what he doesn't know?

Catchy phrase????