Dan Volker's Hockey Fin Evaluation

[TN Traveler]

Bob is whatever marketer he is. He does seem an effective designer and engineer.

If you know he does not always respond as the best marketer for his fins, and you like his fins, I'm not sure why you would not pick a more effective form of communication on his sub-forum. Poking at him does not seem likely to get a positive response.

I will admit I have been a friend of Bob's for about 10 years and also a business associate on matters that do not involve Force Fins.

First, Bob is not an engineer - he is one of those rare individuals that "sees things" differently and tries to make the connection between what he observes and how things can change to make them better. Bob was hired many years ago to document, photographically, the marine growth on the oil rigs off Santa Barbara. If you have ever seen his photos, they are spectacular - and they were done with film (not infinite try digital). he invented his own photo gear since there was none available commercially.

From his observations on fins, he came up with the idea for Force Fins. He has tinkered with shapes and materials to try and make a better fin for divers. Unfortunately, in order to grow the business, he took on investors and they wound up almost closing down Force Fins. He also would not buy large $$ advertising from the Scuba Diving magazines in order to get them to include Force Fins in their "fin rating tests" (high $$$ gets the highest rating). He almost closed the company when he got it back and for awhile, his interest was rekindled with new designs and new materials. But without a dealer network and a lot of divers just wanting to buy cheap, he decided to just let the business keep going on whatever momentum it had and move on to other projects that interested him - mostly involving solving environmental problems.

Most of you have read something about his Gas Pods (bad timing, they came out just as oil prices took a dive). He has other projects in the works which are still not public.

Bob has never been a "marketer" - he is also a bit cantankerous - especially when others don't see his visions. He sometimes says things that piss us all off (me included), but normally after he thinks about what he said in the heat of the moment, he will come back with (an apology and) the complete answer.

This is not an apology for the way Bob is, just trying to make folks understand and accept him for what he is. And if you can enjoy the superior products he produces - so much the better.

 

[Hatul]

“Bob has never been a marketer - he is also a bit cantankerous” sums it put nices. That is not a combination for success in business. He should have hired a marketing guy to lead the business end of the company, IMO. Of course I’m not privy to the details behind the scenes, but I think the fight with Rodale’s Scuba Diving was the first mistake. Then pulling the fins from scuba shops was another, and getting into fight with the California factory and moving production were others. With each mistake the business has been shrinking from what I can see.

 

[TN Traveler]

“Bob has never been a marketer - he is also a bit cantankerous” sums it put nices. That is not a combination for success in business. He should have hired a marketing guy to lead the business end of the company, IMO. Of course I’m not privy to the details behind the scenes, but I think the fight with Rodale’s Scuba Diving was the first mistake. Then pulling the fins from scuba shops was another, and getting into fight with the California factory and moving production were others. With each mistake the business has been shrinking from what I can see.

I cannot comment on the Rodale's situation - my knowledge is strictly hearsay.

I do know that Bob did not "pull the fins from Scuba Shops" - the shops were getting incentives and delayed payment terms from the big manufacturers; Force Fins is/was a small business and could not offer the same terms (finance the shop's inventory), so the shops stopped ordering/stocking the fins. This is a problem many small manufacturers face today and why often the innovators sell directly to the public (much easier now with the internet).

The California factory was owned by the investors that Bob partnered with and when the deal went south, they wanted their building back. The California operations were run by Bob personally, he directed the hand pouring and clean up of all the higher end fins - the higher volume Regular, Pros and Float Tube Fins have been made in PA for a long time. With what real estate costs (not to mention environmental regulations) in California, Bob could not find a location to continue operations in CA. Unfortunately, the automated plant in PA could not use the same materials as Bob used for hand pouring and it took much longer than anticipated to develop a new compound that came close to the old Tan Delta material and to make the new molds to make the higher end fins on an automated production line.

Because of all the heartaches/headaches, Bob is not as committed to Force Fins as he once was. He has other projects that have his interest and he continues to provide Force Fins for those that appreciate what they offer. But he also realizes that most divers really do not appreciate what a great pair of fins can provide - they are happy with cheaper alternatives since they want to spend their big dollars on "life support" equipment (BCD, Regs). Then again, some of us find the comfort and control we get from our Force Fins to be worth it and understand that the latest and greatest BCD/Reg is not that important (I still dive at times with a 1950's U.S. Divers Mistral and a back plate). To each his/her own.

 

[tridacna]

I agree with everything you say except the "life support" mumbo jumbo. I had absolutely no problem paying top dollar for a top fin. Nor about of my buddies. There are a bunch of us who dive together in FFs. We love them and are not that price sensitive to a quality product. OTOH, it took me weeks to get a pair of bungies a few years back from B&S. Their service was awful but I tolerated it just because I had no choice. It's a real pity - I would buy Tan Deltas today if available.

The problem is that the gap between $200 fins which are considered exorbitantly expensive and anything decent by Bob was even more so. It's just plain old economics. Are FFs really worth double the price of Seawing Novas? Or four times the price of Avanti Quattros?

 

[TN Traveler]

No jumbo jumbo, I agree it is about economics and where anyone wants to spend their money. Some will spend $1000 for a Reg from ScubaPro or Aqualung, $800 for a Zeagle BCD and $100 for fins while there are those that spend $400 for a HOG Reg, $500 for a BP&W and $500 for a pair of Excellerators. All about economics and where you want to put your $$$$.

 

[meesier42]

The problem is that the gap between $200 fins which are considered exorbitantly expensive and anything decent by Bob was even more so. It's just plain old economics. Are FFs really worth double the price of Seawing Novas? Or four times the price of Avanti Quattros?

The simple answer is YES they are. I'll dive pretty much any regulator and any BCD, and it makes almost no difference to my dive. But, take my ForceFins away and I'll hate every minute of the dive. I don't much care what they cost, they are worth every cent and minute that I have to wait.

 

[tridacna]

Here’s the problem: I’d like to see someone not named @meesier42 or @TN Traveler make the statement below!

Also hard to sell a $795 pair of fins to JUST the three of us! Especially when you guys seem to get the prototypes and samples for free!

The simple answer is YES they are. I'll dive pretty much any regulator and any BCD, and it makes almost no difference to my dive. But, take my ForceFins away and I'll hate every minute of the dive. I don't much care what they cost, they are worth every cent and minute that I have to wait.

 

[TN Traveler]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I got a pair of prototypes for free but PAID full price for my “production “ pair. I have never gotten a free pair from Bob!

My “free” prototypes are what Dan has as demos.

 

[coldwaterlloyd]

Here’s the problem: I’d like to see someone not named @meesier42 or @TN Traveler make the statement below!

Also hard to sell a $795 pair of fins to JUST the three of us! Especially when you guys seem to get the prototypes and samples for free!

You can put me down as someone not named ...
I dive an old MK10 - 156 / Conshelf 14 regs / old Scubapro Stab BCD , antique Suunto Eon computer
500 dollar Force Tan Delta Fins ,

If you ever suffered foot / leg cramps you will know why we worship Force Fins , let alone the excellent performance

 

[tridacna]

You can put me down as someone not named ...
I dive an old MK10 - 156 / Conshelf 14 regs / old Scubapro Stab BCD , antique Suunto Eon computer
500 dollar Force Tan Delta Fins ,

If you ever suffered foot / leg cramps you will know why we worship Force Fins , let alone the excellent performance

You’re preaching to the choir and you paid more than $500 if you bought them new!