DAN missed the boat ...

[Bismark]

My limited diving experience that leads me to want to be self reliant?

I don't understand your point.

Bob's point was that the article didn't address the buddy system, which I believe to be fundamentally flawed in 95% of cases based on human nature.

The only buddy teams that can work are those in which both parties are willing to worry about the safety of the other in earnest. I just don't see that happening in most cases.

Am I wrong? Have you experienced a different environment on your outings with random buddies?

Because every random buddy I've had in my EXTREMELY limited tenure has been far more concerned with their own goals underwater that whether or not I was ok, or even whether or not I was THERE near them.

I should add - again, for clarity - I am simply playing devil's advocate to the problem.

Just because I believe the system is flawed doesn't mean I won't do what I can to make it work, and do it wholeheartedly.

I just don't count on some random person to be there when I need them. But you can bet the bank that if someone free flows underwater or goes OOA, whether or not they knew I was near them, I'll have an Octo extended when they decide it's time to find me.

I just simply do not believe it to be the same in reverse. I believe I will be on my own if that happens, based on what I've seen to date. Maybe someone will surprise me, who knows.

In your own words "I just don't see that happening in most cases".........these "most cases" are the lack of experience I was referring to in your earlier post.

If we are talking about police work, and I was some one with 25 days on the job, I would pay particular attention to someone with 30 years on the job when he was giving me some advice......... it might save my life some time.

Don't take it too personally, but you are making some big decisions regarding the fundamental nature of your diving (self reliant versus buddy system) with very little practical experience with either in diving. No offense because 30 years ago I was where you are now.

We wouldn't even be having these discussions about the fundamental nature of entering into a hostile environment that will kill you without life support if nearly all training agencies and instructors were doing their jobs right........but that is for another post.

By the way, a sincere thank you for entering a career that tends to receive little thanks from the average person........until they really need them. Kind of like a dive buddy.

 

[SPG3K]

In your own words "I just don't see that happening in most cases".........these "most cases" are the lack of experience I was referring to in your earlier post.

If we are talking about police work, and I was some one with 25 days on the job, I would pay particular attention to someone with 30 years on the job when he was giving me some advice......... it might save my life some time.

Don't take it too personally, but you are making some big decisions regarding the fundamental nature of your diving (self reliant versus buddy system) with very little practical experience with either in diving. No offense because 30 years ago I was where you are now.

We wouldn't even be having these discussions about the fundamental nature of entering into a hostile environment that will kill you without life support if nearly all training agencies and instructors were doing their jobs right........but that is for another post.

By the way, a sincere thank you for entering a career that tends to receive little thanks from the average person........until they really need them. Kind of like a dive buddy.

Fair enough. I can willingly admit that I am basing my argument off of a very limited cross section of divers and dives.

Like I said though, I have, and will continue to give every buddy that I am paired with the buddy he deserves and expects me to be. I just hope the favor is returned should I ever need it.

 

[Bismark]

Fair enough. I can willingly admit that I am basing my argument off of a very limited cross section of divers and dives.

Like I said though, I have, and will continue to give every buddy that I am paired with the buddy he deserves and expects me to be. I just hope the favor is returned should I ever need it.

I would expect nothing less from someone who has already agreed to put themselves in harms way for strangers.

My personal approach to diving with new buddies is to stick to them like glue. Like I said earlier, if I am within reach of them, they are in reach of me I am not particularly invasive about it, but if I notice my buddy is less than attentive, I just adjust my dive accordingly. I may have a less than great dive that way, but I can always dive again, somewhere, someday. No big deal. I won't sacrifice my personal well being for anything under water. I might not chose to dive again with that person, but no big deal. Just once and a while the horse learns to sing...........

 

[OceanicFan]

Hmmm... Well, I had to pick some point in time to come out from troll status, so, why not now? Hehe!

I can see both sides of the argument, but doesn't it make sense to walk into each and every new dive situation with an open mind? If you get on every charter boat, or show up at every dive event just waiting to be let down by the person you are being paired with, it seems to me, at least, that you are writing your own ending to the story before you open the book.

What if you got on a boat one day, and were stuck with NWGrateful. Would you automatically assume, as in every other case that he would be someone that you can't trust? It stands to reason that you have no idea what level your new buddy dives at until you give him or her a chance to prove themselves. If they prove to be unreliable, or at worst, a threat to your personal safety, don't ever dive with them again. In the mean time, carry your Pony Bottle just in case something terrible does happen.

But there are such things in life as self-fulfilling prophecies. Assuming that every new buddy is going to abandon you is more likely than not going to turn into one. I do understand that you are a Cop, so am I. I understand that you can't trust anyone. We have a problem of pre-judging everyone more than the average person does. It's a problem for all Law Enforcement. It's why our families don't understand why we look at people strangely sometimes, or sit with our backs facing away from doors in restaurants. It's why my wife constantly accuses me of being judgmental. I have to be, thats how I survive on the street.

I'm not saying that you are wrong, per se, because I believe you may have a valid point where some divers are concerned. However, if you buy your Pony Bottle, or get it in the mail, whatever, and wear it on every dive, you will be that much more of an asset to someone who has an emergency involving gas underwater. In the mean time, try to do what you can to make sure you enter each dive with the mentality of lets make a friend, instead of: when is this person going to let me down.

I know it's hard. It's bred and trained into us daily. But I promise, it doesn't apply 100% of the time in diving, just like it doesn't on the street. As a side note - SPG, I see that you are listed as living in Woodstock,as do I, where do you work? I would not be entirely surprised if I knew you already!

OF

 

[Peter Guy]

I totally agree with NWGD on this one (and with TSandM [but then I'd better since I know what's good for me]). HOWEVER, someone else made the point about "the buddy system" that seems to have changed over time and that is something that has bothered me since I returned to diving a few years ago.

As shown by my avatar, my first years of diving were in the golden-oldie days of simple gear. We were drilled to be a "buddy" because your buddy WAS your lifeline -- no pony, no independent doubles, etc. IF you had a problem (such as you forgot to reset your j-valve) you had better be able to get to your buddy -- so that meant we learned to be aware of where our buddy was.

When I was dragged (kicking and screaming) into the "Unified Team Diving" world, I really wondered what all this fuss about "team diving" was -- since it was merely what I had been taught 35+ years earlier. But what I was "taught" in my OW/AOW classes was really NOT how to be a "buddy" but, instead, just that I should BE a buddy (sort of like I was taught to "plan a dive and dive the plan" but not HOW to do such, but I digress). (BTW, this is NOT a dig at my instructors who I thought, and still believe, are very good -- but it IS a dig at how the training curriculum is designed.)

That all said, buddy diving is really not all that difficult. You don't need to be in touch contact -- all you need to be is within a no-breath swim of each other. For example, in a class I had a little while ago, one of the drills was to take the reg out, clip it off and THEN swim to my buddy for air. Hmmm, I decided 20' was as far as I wanted to be away from my "alternate air source."

Regarding the poster who did a test in the pool -- Hey, if I go OOG I am NOT going to just blindly signal my buddy -- I'm going to swim over to him, trying to get his attention while I'm doing that, but, in any event, grabbing "my" air when I get there (assuming he hasn't offered it to me). Why would you just hang out and wait to see if there was a response? You have some obligation too.

For what it's worth, I have never used a "pony" setup and wouldn't know what to do with one -- but I do dive manifolded doubles often. AND, if I'm in a situation where I'm going out with someone I will more often than not dive the doubles. Nope, no pony for me! (heh, heh)

 

[InkDiver]

First off, to address the "instabuddy" thing: I have now travelled to Maui, Monterey, Southern California, and Florida, and gotten in the water with people I only knew from talking to them on the internet. In EVERY case, the dive has proceeded without any issues at all. Why? Because we're trained the same way, and we're trained that situational awareness is the highest priority. We're drilled on positioning and effective communication, and we use an expensive but extremely valuable tool: A very bright, focused light....

As Bob said, most people aren't taught how to be a good dive buddy. They haven't talked about the various formations you can use, and the advantages and drawbacks of each. They haven't been exposed to the utility of a good light for passive communication. And of course, keeping a buddy team together also requires good buoyancy skills.

I'm with TSandM on this one. The most important pieces of training I've had are Rescue training and Cave training. I have a regular dive buddy and we pretty much finish eachother's sentences at this point. When we are diving, almost always in caves, situational awareness is primary. Being a good buddy is not just passive (knowing where your buddy is) but also active (making sure he is OK, knows where you are, etc.) We do that all the time using light signals in the cave. I've never once felt like the buddy system wasn't working for us. We also communicate on the surface:
"Slow it down a bit on the next dive, I'm a bit tired"
"I was a little uncomfortable, you were getting a bit too far back oward the end of the dive, let's stay just a bit closer on the next dive"
"I couldn't understand your hand signal, what were you saying, so I'll know next time (sometimes we signal weird stuff to eachother underwater)"
"OK, we'll go this way, then that way, and end up here" (yes, good buddy skills require good planning skills).

This is, of course, with a regular buddy. But....and this is a big BUT....I would feel comfortable "insta-diving" with a lot of cave divers, specifically because I know the importance of situational awareness in cave training and how religiously it is followed by most.

That doesn't mean that cave training is the only way to get this. There are many good instructors like Bob who will instill this into a diver from the start. Personally, however, my cave training is where it really came together.

Some have said that there are plenty of other things beside OOA that can occur, UW. I agree with this, however, the fact is that "almost" all of them can be overcome if you have 2 things, a good buddy and enough air. Regular, religious checking of gas supply is critical.

Finally, Rescue training cannot be downplayed. This not only provides the basis to help others but to help yourself. Before you would descend to find a buddy (as in the article), someone with solid rescue training would know to check their air, consider their current nitrogen loading, etc etc. Personally, I think it should be a course that everyone takes.

 

[Thalassamania]

... For example, in a class I had a little while ago, one of the drills was to take the reg out, clip it off and THEN swim to my buddy for air. Hmmm, I decided 20' was as far as I wanted to be away from my "alternate air source."

...

Excellent exercise, excellent plan. We do something similar, one diver at the bottom of the pool, the other swims two laps hard, surface dives (no regulator use) and approaches the donor from behind. The OOA diver taps on the donor's shoulder, signals for air, the donor counts to three and surrenders the primary. The staff felt that this was a pretty close simulation of what "the real thing" is like, and the students' awareness of where their buddy is and what their buddy's doing shot way up.

 

[DEEPLOU]

For what it's worth, I have never used a "pony" setup and wouldn't know what to do with one -- but I do dive manifolded doubles often. AND, if I'm in a situation where I'm going out with someone I will more often than not dive the doubles. Nope, no pony for me! (heh, heh)

Although I first learned to dive a couple of years ago (that gear in your avitar looks familiar) I didn't really get into it till abt 14 yrs ago.

My only "true buddy" is yellow and holds about 19 cuft of air. This I use when I go south to Florida and only have a single tank.
Like Peter, I dive mostly with manifolded doubles. Here the redundancy is being able to reach and close any of the three valves on those doubles. (a skill practiced so it is an automatic reflex) With doubles there is no need for a pony.

The most important part of this buddy system is communication and self reliance. But even when diving with a buddy, that redundant air supply is critical. An Octopus is merely a device that turns one out of air diver into two out of air divers.

 

[hlsooner]

Do the two have to be mutually exclusive? That is, can one consider carrying a redundant air source, i.e. pony bottle, and still focus on buddy skills, and be concerned about the lack of them in many divers.

I don't think I have seen a person here yet who argues that a second bottle to breath off of replaces a skilled second human being. Is the argument being made that by taking your own redundant air you somehow become a worse buddy? This seems similar to the argument frequently made here that taking a pony bottle somehow makes the person become lax in pre-dive planning and gas monitoring?

 

[SparticleBrane]

Excellent exercise, excellent plan. We do something similar, one diver at the bottom of the pool, the other swims two laps hard, surface dives (no regulator use) and approaches the donor from behind. The OOA diver taps on the donor's shoulder, signals for air, the donor counts to three and surrenders the primary. The staff felt that this was a pretty close simulation of what "the real thing" is like, and the students' awareness of where their buddy is and what their buddy's doing shot way up.

We do something similar at school, although not quite to that level. We break the class up into 2 groups and go to opposite sides of the 25-yard pool. Both groups drop down and hover (in ~3-4ft of water) and wait for the signal given by the instructor or TA.

One of the two students waiting on either side of the pool is thrown a signal that they are OOG (student is randomly chosen so they don't know it's coming). They must then give the OOG signal to their 'buddy' (on the opposite of the pool) and they start swimming towards each other. The OOG diver has to take their reg out and clip it off as they're swimming. If they forget to give the OOG signal, their buddy doesn't move towards them or do anything else until the signal is thrown...more than one time, that's made the interesting situation of having the OOG diver swim almost the entire length of the pool underwater to get air, because they forgot to signal they were OOG.