D-2000 Strobe

[ReyeR]

I'm re-arranging your post to explain better:

Yes, they are in sync with the leading edge (beginning) of the firing internal strobe, but what about the trailing edge (end) when the strobe is on its way down? The trailing edge is what tells the external strobe when to stop! Are you saying that Inon has a built in Heinrich TTL adapter? Because there still isn’t a feedback path for the "quench" signal.

Yes, it has a similar concept to the Weikamp TTL adapter. When I used the term 'mimick' TTL I meant exactly that: the 'mimick' circuit watches when the master TTL strobe fires (leading edge event) and fires the D-2000; it continues to 'watch' the master strobe; when it detects a quench (trailing edge event) it'll quench the D-2000. It is simply copying what the master TTL strobe is doing.

What is really happening is that Inon is guessing on what the flash duration (equates to strength of light) should be at a given distance, aperture setting, and film speed, ISO.

That is why Inon needs to have the user preset the aperture settings on the strobe to match the aperture on the camera. The preset setting on the strobe are the actually strobe duration times for a set aperture opening in order to get a decent exposure... then increase or decrease the strobe power to bracket the shots. Which is just like shooting in MANUAL! Only in Inon’s case the strobe power is varied and not the aperture, as the case in manual shooting.

Nope, in S-TTL mode it does not require the user to preset the aperture settings. I hope you're not getting confused because the EV dial is shared with three different modes. The f-stop numbers are for the External Auto mode. The EV controller acts like a flash exposure compensation dial (see below).

Ok, lets say that Inon really meant "Syncro" meaning in Sync or in Step. Meaning that Inon is tapping off the internal flashhead, the true TTL system of the camera. You had mention this yourself:

"How the D-2000, as a mimic TTL strobe, knows when to cut-off before the master TTL strobe quenches is beyond me, but apparently it works)."

I mentioned this specifically in context to flash exposure compensation - don't confuse this with the general S-TTL concept of the D-2000.

The EV dial on the S-2000, in S-TTL mode, behaves like a 'flash exposure compensation' dial. The D-2000 is still 'mimicking' (see above) the master TTL strobe, but you can get the D-2000 to stay on longer (than the master TTL strobe's duration) by dialing this dial to the '+' side, therefore allowing you to compensate for a subject that might fool your camera's TTL flash exposure measurement e.g. a dark subject on a light background. Dial the EV controller to the '-' side and it'll cut off BEFORE the master TTL strobe cuts off. Getting the D-2000 to stay on longer or a '+' compensation is easy understand, it just detects when the master strobe has gone off (trailing edge event) and continues to stay on longer for the amount dialed in. But how the D-2000 know when to cut-off before the master strobe quenches is what I don't understand. This is what I was referring to with my statement. The D-2000 can detect the trailing edge event but it has no idea when this is going to happen so it can't really pre-empt this and cut-off before this event by the amount dialed in.

The external Auto mode is not much use, unless the strobe is mounted right next to the camera’s lens, which for most UW folks here is a no-no. This is because the sensor is mounted in the face of the strobe itself. As the strobe fires, the light reflecting off of the subject has to come back to the strobe face in order to shutoff the flash. The problem here is that the strobe is usually mounted away from the camera, so the camera may see a different light than what the strobes sees.

It isn't totally useless, it'll work for some situations. And again, you can 'compensate' by dialing in a different aperture number than on your camera and influence it to give more or less light when the sensor gets fooled.

Ikelite has a similar setup but their sensor can be mounted remote, like near the camera lens.

I haven't heard of this so not sure what you are talking about.

 

[f3nikon]

Uhh, the Z220 has 11 manual settings. Close enough ??

Dave

Very good point... (I was asking for 1/3 stop inc.) now take out the useless external auto, fake TTL mode, focus light and target laser, cut the $650 price in half. Then maybe we have a deal!

 

[dbh]

Very good point... (I was asking for 1/3 stop inc.) now take out the useless external auto, fake TTL mode, focus light and target laser, cut the $650 price in half. Then maybe we have a deal!

The Z220s is sans the focus & target lights...not 1/2 price though...but less than the Z220. Are you just looking at suggested retail or have you e-mailed for "real" prices?


Dave

 

[f3nikon]

I'm re-arranging your post to explain better:

Yes, it has a similar concept to the Weikamp TTL adapter. When I used the term 'mimick' TTL I meant exactly that: the 'mimick' circuit watches when the master TTL strobe fires (leading edge event) and fires the D-2000; it continues to 'watch' the master strobe; when it detects a quench (trailing edge event) it'll quench the D-2000. It is simply copying what the master TTL strobe is doing.

Since when did the Inon strobe have a setup like Heinrich's pictured below? Heinrich uses the camera's actual hot shoe to pick up the signal via a transmitter then to the strobe, quenching the flash. The Inon is just an optical cable placed in front of the internal flash is this correct? What I am getting at is that with the Heinrich's or Weikamp (are they the same?) system, the quench signal is preconditioned or cleaned up before entering the optical cord. Giving the strobe a much better chance of detecting the pulse. Could this be why the author at wetpixel, during a D-2000 review, had some bad results when testing the strobe?

You said yourself in the first post that you were not sure how the signal is feedback to quench the strobe. Did you come up on some drawings from Inon to confirm this?

Nope, in S-TTL mode it does not require the user to preset the aperture settings. I hope you're not getting confused because the EV dial is shared with three different modes. The f-stop numbers are for the External Auto mode. The EV controller acts like a flash exposure compensation dial (see below).

I stand corrected if this is the case. The Ext. Auto, to me anyway, is still useless and I'll tell you why in the closing statements.

The EV dial on the S-2000, in S-TTL mode, behaves like a 'flash exposure compensation' dial. The D-2000 is still 'mimicking' (see above) the master TTL strobe, but you can get the D-2000 to stay on longer (than the master TTL strobe's duration) by dialing this dial to the '+' side, therefore allowing you to compensate for a subject that might fool your camera's TTL flash exposure measurement e.g. a dark subject on a light background. Dial the EV controller to the '-' side and it'll cut off BEFORE the master TTL strobe cuts off. Getting the D-2000 to stay on longer or a '+' compensation is easy understand, it just detects when the master strobe has gone off (trailing edge event) and continues to stay on longer for the amount dialed in. But how the D-2000 know when to cut-off before the master strobe quenches is what I don't understand. This is what I was referring to with my statement. The D-2000 can detect the trailing edge event but it has no idea when this is going to happen so it can't really pre-empt this and cut-off before this event by the amount dialed in.

It isn't totally useless, it'll work for some situations. And again, you can 'compensate' by dialing in a different aperture number than on your camera and influence it to give more or less light when the sensor gets fooled.

Correct, and that situation is when the strobe/sensor is right next to the camera's lens. Which again I am saying is a no-no to the UW folk's rule about having the strobes as far away as possible at a 45 degree angle. Thanks for the explaination on flash exposure comp., isn't that just like shooting in manual mode in the first place?

In closing, sorry to all for being so rough on the TTL system or some of the latest high tech. gadgets that people rely upon. As for myself, I really want to EXPERIENCE the Art of Photography. That comes with as much manual control over the out come of the picture as possible. Ron is correct... TTL is just a tool, a tool for shooting with FILM!

Autoflash and then TTL were both invented because with FILM there were no LCDs for instant FEEDBACK! There were 36 exposures max on a roll of 35mm film, if each shot were bracketed by two shots each you are down to 12 shots! Pretty tough changing film UW. And you better hope that the E-6 film process was near by....

Fast forward to 2005, to the era of the God sent digital, instant exposure, composition and focusing FEEDBACK and enough memory to record the entire dive vacation with one card... We are still trying to find ways to make UW digital exposures AUTOMATIC! What next Auto Composition? Heck, maybe some day I can ship the cameras and strobes to the dive site and the cameras will take the pictures all by themselves!

Al

 

[f3nikon]

The Z220s is sans the focus & target lights...not 1/2 price though...but less than the Z220. Are you just looking at suggested retail or have you e-mailed for "real" prices?


Dave

Thanks, you are correct that was sug. retail.

Al

 

[dbh]

Thanks, you are correct that was sug. retail.

Al

Heinrich & Weikamp are partners. Their adapters are only for hard wired strobes. I would take james's review of the D2000 (on Wetpixel) with a grain of salt. He had flaws in his test methods that were brought to his attention and he would not amend his review.

Dave

 

[ReyeR]

Since when did the Inon strobe have a setup like Heinrich's pictured below? Heinrich uses the camera's actual hot shoe to pick up the signal via a transmitter then to the strobe, quenching the flash. The Inon is just an optical cable placed in front of the internal flash is this correct? What I am getting at is that with the Heinrich's or Weikamp (are they the same?) system, the quench signal is preconditioned or cleaned up before entering the optical cord. Giving the strobe a much better chance of detecting the pulse. Could this be why the author at wetpixel, during a D-2000 review, had some bad results when testing the strobe?

Matthias Heinrichs (and his partner Weikamp) offer many solutions. You are referring to the Olympus solution for Olympus cameras with a hotshoe. The solution I am referring to is the Digital Adapter 2 which is for digicams which don't have a hotshoe. This is similar in principal to the Inon D-2000 S-TTL. The quench signal is achieved by watching and mimicking the quench signal of the master TTL strobe.

You said yourself in the first post that you were not sure how the signal is feedback to quench the strobe. Did you come up on some drawings from Inon to confirm this?

Read the explanation in my second post carefully - I think you're missing my point.

Correct, and that situation is when the strobe/sensor is right next to the camera's lens. Which again I am saying is a no-no to the UW folk's rule about having the strobes as far away as possible at a 45 degree angle.

Have you used a strobe with External Auto to come to this conclusion? I have, with the strobe placed far away from the camera lens, and it works very well. Many members of this board who use the D-180 will confirm this.

Thanks for the explaination on flash exposure comp., isn't that just like shooting in manual mode in the first place?

Nope. Flash exposure compensation is based on the TTL flash exposure calculation of the camera, regardless of if the strobe is directly controlled by the camera or mimmicking a master TTL strobe that is being controlled by the camera. FEC just adds or subtracts the dialed in compensation amount from the TTL calculation. In manual, as you will know it, the user sets the brightness of the strobe with no influence or intervention from the camera at all.

We can argue till we are blue in the face about the virtues (or non-virtues) of TTL and other forms of automatic strobe control. As you said, they are tools, and like all tools if used within their limitations will perform as expected.

 

[f3nikon]

We can argue till we are blue in the face about the virtues (or non-virtues) of TTL and other forms of automatic strobe control. As you said, they are tools, and like all tools if used within their limitations will perform as expected.

Actually it was another photographer that said, “TTL was just a tool” I said TTL was a tool for FILM! In the case of DIGITAL Photography, to me, TTL is a Hindrance or a self-imposed handicap!

The FEEDBACK from a Calibrated LCD display is what I consider a “tool” in DIGITAL Photography. And a powerful tool at that! As the photographer looks back at the LCD to confirm the correct exposure, he/she will also be checking for composition and maybe even the focus at the same time.

One will get more inconsistent results when using Slave TTL UW, than if you were shooting in manual mode. The first problem is getting the feedback quench pulse, (accurately) back to the strobe. Be it the optical cable isn’t sitting properly or the signal itself is very noisy, Heinrich would not be in business if they didn’t think so.

When shooting in Slave TTL mode one is essentially asking the camera/strobe to give the best exposure possible. Relying on the fact that all the connections and signals are working and the camera knows exactly what part of the picture you want to be exposed properly. Yes, you can bracket with the exposure comp. dial but be aware that the center spot of the frame is what the TTL circuit is watching. The target subject has to be within this area in order for the system to work (handicap #2). So much for creativity in composition!

The camera is now TELLING the photographer that he/she MUST have all subjects in the MIDDLE of the frame! Shooting in manual mode overcomes this.

Matthias Heinrichs (and his partner Weikamp) offer many solutions. You are referring to the Olympus solution for Olympus cameras with a hotshoe. The solution I am referring to is the Digital Adapter 2 which is for digicams which don't have a hotshoe. This is similar in principal to the Inon D-2000 S-TTL. The quench signal is achieved by watching and mimicking the quench signal of the master TTL strobe....

Please refer to Inon’s write up on the problems with their external auto mode and some very good pictures of the point I was trying to make, about the differences between Heinrich’s pick up sensor “Digital Adapter” (actual transmitter) and Inon’s (optical cable placed in front of an dark IR filter.) Look at the strobe pulse patterns on an O-scope (from your digital adaptor link).

Heinrich actually CONVERTS the ANALOG signal from the internal strobe to a much cleaner, DIGITAL signal, if Inon can produce the same clean signal from the camera’s analog internal flash to external strobe then Heinrich just may as well close down shop...Hey wait a minute why am I wasting all this time talking about a slave TTL, when I don't even use the stuff??!!

http://www.seaoptic.com/PDF/SO-InonSTTL.pdf

Dive Safe

 

[ReyeR]

Actually it was another photographer that said, "TTL was just a tool" I said TTL was a tool for FILM! In the case of DIGITAL Photography, to me, TTL is a Hindrance or a self-imposed handicap!

The FEEDBACK from a....
.
.
.... for creativity in composition!

The camera is now TELLING the photographer that he/she MUST have all subjects in the MIDDLE of the frame! Shooting in manual mode overcomes this.

No comment. Like I said, waste of time and bandwith.

Please refer to Inon's write up on the problems with their external auto mode and some very good pictures of the point I was trying to make, about the differences between Heinrich’s pick up sensor "Digital Adapter" (actual transmitter) and Inon's (optical cable placed in front of an dark IR filter.)

After all this dialogue why are you now comparing Inon's 'External Auto' mode with Matthias's Digital Adaptor?? They are two different systems. If you want to compare then do it with Inon's S-TTL mode.

Heinrich actually CONVERTS the ANALOG signal from the internal strobe to a much cleaner, DIGITAL signal, if Inon can produce the same clean signal from the camera’s analog internal flash to external strobe then Heinrich just may as well close down shop

In one breath you extol Matthias's system and discredit Inon's system, when if fact they both use the same principal.

The Inon S-TTL system would have to do the same, convert an analogue flash (optical) pulse into an electrical one with which the strobe is controlled. The fact that the Digital Adaptor 2 is connected to the strobe with an electrical sync cable and that a fibre optical cable runs from the in front of the IR filter to the D-2000 changes nothing. With the Digital Adapter 2 the analogue pick-up sensor and conversion circuit sits in the Digital Adapter - it basically converts the camera's flash pulse to an electrical TTL signal, in this case a Nikonos TTL signal, and sends this signal down the sync cable to a Nikonos TTL compatible strobe, like the Z-220 or YS-90DX. With the D-2000 the pick-up sensor and conversion circuitary sits in the strobe head and the fibre optic cable is only a 'channel' for the optical (light) signal to travel down to this sensor. Analogue to digital conversion happens in BOTH systems.

Matthias' adapters were originally designed for housings without provision for a sync cable, like the PT-015. They were also designed to work with some of the older, 'non-digital' strobes, like the YS-60, for those who were migrating from a film system to a digital one. The fact that he is innovative and that his technology works with most Nikonos compatible strobes will ensure that he's not 'shutting shop' soon. But it doesn't mean that innovative companies like Inon can't produce similar technology. In all probability one of Inon's originator would have been an engineer.

Hey wait a minute why am I wasting all this time talking about a slave TTL, when I don't even use the stuff??!!

You tell me, someone started it with a "Someone please tell me what is going on???"

 

[f3nikon]

Actually it was another photographer that said, “TTL was just a tool” I said TTL was a tool for FILM! In the case of DIGITAL Photography, to me, TTL is a Hindrance or a self-imposed handicap!

The FEEDBACK from a Calibrated LCD display is what I consider a “tool” in DIGITAL Photography. And a powerful tool at that! As the photographer looks back at the LCD to confirm the correct exposure, he/she will also be checking for composition and maybe even the focus at the same time.

One will get more inconsistent results when using Slave TTL UW, than if you were shooting in manual mode. The first problem is getting the feedback quench pulse, (accurately) back to the strobe. Be it the optical cable isn’t sitting properly or the signal itself is very noisy, Heinrich would not be in business if they didn’t think so.

When shooting in Slave TTL mode one is essentially asking the camera/strobe to give the best exposure possible. Relying on the fact that all the connections and signals are working and the camera knows exactly what part of the picture you want to be exposed properly. Yes, you can bracket with the exposure comp. dial but be aware that the center spot of the frame is what the TTL circuit is watching. The target subject has to be within this area in order for the system to work (handicap #2). So much for creativity in composition!

The camera is now TELLING the photographer that he/she MUST have all subjects in the MIDDLE of the frame! Shooting in manual mode overcomes this.

No comment. Like I said, waste of time and bandwith.

I am open to any refutations.

After all this dialogue why are you now comparing Inon's 'External Auto' mode with Matthias's Digital Adaptor?? They are two different systems. If you want to compare then do it with Inon's S-TTL mode.

??? I was comparing Matthias’s TTL Adapter with Inon’s TTL optical pick up. Not comparing the TTL to the External auto.

Please refer to Inon’s write up on the problems with their external auto mode AND some very good pictures of the point I was trying to make, about the differences between Heinrich’s pick up sensor “Digital Adapter” (actual transmitter) and Inon’s (optical cable placed in front of an dark IR filter.) Look at the strobe pulse patterns on an O-scope (from your digital adaptor link).

Heinrich actually CONVERTS the ANALOG signal from the internal strobe to a much cleaner, DIGITAL signal, if Inon can produce the same clean signal from the camera’s analog internal flash to external strobe then Heinrich just may as well close down shop.

In one breath you extol Matthias's system and discredit Inon's system, when if fact they both use the same principal.

How can analog to analog be the same as analog to DIGITAL? Actually I could care less about both systems both are trying to make something out of NOTHING, in reference to my first statement about TTL! The camera’s LCD is the TOOL.

The consumers will decide if these products will fly or not and if we are willing to PAY BIG Money for a HANDICAP! I have a feeling that someone will come out with a cheap $150 range manual UW strobe, 12 power settings and sync cord fired (hint to Boncia). With the prices of digital cameras falling, people will realize that putting their PnS non-HOTSHOE camera in an UW housing will be much more costly because of all the GIMMICKS involved in getting U/W pictures. They’re better off getting a 5050 or similar hotshoe type Nikon or Canon digital dedicated for UW use. With hardwired sync cord directly to the camera’s hotshoe, via the bulkhead feed through on the housing, to a low price but efficient manual strobe.

The Inon S-TTL system would have to do the same, convert an analogue flash (optical) pulse into an electrical one with which the strobe is controlled. The fact that the Digital Adaptor 2 is connected to the strobe with an electrical sync cable and that a fibre optical cable runs from the in front of the IR filter to the D-2000 changes nothing. With the Digital Adapter 2 the analogue pick-up sensor and conversion circuit sits in the Digital Adapter - it basically converts the camera's flash pulse to an electrical TTL signal, in this case a Nikonos TTL signal, and sends this signal down the sync cable to a Nikonos TTL compatible strobe, like the Z-220 or YS-90DX. With the D-2000 the pick-up sensor and conversion circuitary sits in the strobe head and the fibre optic cable is only a 'channel' for the optical (light) signal to travel down to this sensor. Analogue to digital conversion happens in BOTH systems.

So do you agree than the Matthias's system coverts the analog signal from the internal flash into DIGITAL…. BEFORE sending to the optical cable? And that the Inon system sends the signal in analog form into the optical cable, arriving at the strobe head in ANALOG form, which then the strobe coverts into a digital signal?
If you agree then why did you say that both systems were in “fact they both use the same principal.” The Matthias's system, by converting into digital signal as soon as it leaves the internal flash head, yields a more cleaner, predictable signal as it travels through the optical cable. The Inon system on the other hand is relying on the placement of the optical cable to the IR filter so the strength of the ANALOG signal will vary on the distance or angle of the optical connection. Garbage in garbage out as it enters the strobe head. Converting into digital in the strobe will not help if the data is already bad.

Such is the case with digital communications or data transfer; the analog signal is converted into a digital signal BEFORE sending it out to transfer.

Thanks for taking the time on explaining your views on TTL; I still think it’s even more useless in the age of digital photography, but that’s just my opinion.