Creation vs. Evolution

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This post edited by Doc. Response to inflammatory rhetoric.

well, that' s just name calling


anyway, even truth is subjective, and clearly those people do not feel that they believe things which are not true

if they thought that, then they wouldnt' believe it

i do think that they interpret the evidence incorrectly, but ultimately that's their call
 
Let me throw this up...it's my extremely brief explaination of why some of us are able to believe in something we can't prove and it can lead to the appearence or complete irrationality.

First, I'm not in the young earth camp myself, I believe that there can be and is great harmony between Science and the Bible as I've said previously.

With that being said, some of us have had experiences which we cannot explain, science and our doctors cannot explain, our "reason and intellect" cannot explain, our concrete worldview cannot explain, what we "know" to be reality cannot explain. It is these multiple "unexplained" or "unexplainable" and "irrational" experiences which when added together give me at least the knowledge that there is something going on outside of the "reality" I live in. I then tried to align the prepondrance of the "this makes no sense" with different views of the supernatural to see what fit. Which "explanation" of the "unseen" aligned with my experience? Which seemed to have the most "rational" and supported evidence for aligning with "truth"?

Once I came to the conclusion that there "is a God", I then had to take the journey to figure out which of the many "religions" gave the best explaination. Repeatedly I came back to Christianity. The archeology, literary documentation, historicity of the internal and external sources, internal rationality etc. which kept putting it ahead of "other religions". Then it comes down to the core teachings. What is it teaching? How is this different than any other religions teachings, how does it line-up with my personal experiences etc. The concept of Grace is unique to Christianity...it is the only religion which at it's core reinforces what I know is true...if God's standard is perfection...I'm not good enough, nothing that I can do of my own action will allow me to elevate myself to perfection. Every other religion has as it's core the belief that the individual can "work" their way to "heaven". This seemed to at it's core set Christianity apart as different from all the rest. Just one point but a distinct point of reference to anchor to to start.

Then it came down to the person at the core, Jesus. (I know and we can actually argue redaction criticism, early dating, later dating, Pauline thought until the cows come home and keep on until morning...give me this, if I take it that the traditional creeds and theological understanding of who He is is correct and an accurate representation of what He said/taught, then this is what I base my beliefs on...I'll take the creeds/historical understanding at their word). Who did He say that He was? What did He teach? What does this mean for me? Is this someone I can follow? What is the cost?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe that once I came to competely believe from experience that there is more than just what I can see...I had to figure out what it was and what the "bigger truth" was. Once I'd accepted that there was a God, everything else in terms of belief then follows this "truth".

I'm rambling and I know it...

Suffice it to say...for many of us...what you would term as "irrational" and "impossible to prove" is just as real to us as the keyboards in front of us which we are typing on.

I don't think that this belief excuses intellectual laziness and/or complely ignoring "reality" but...I'd caution that the human mind has the amazing ability to see what it wants to see, ignore what it doesn't want to see and convince itself of a great many things to hold as "truth" which are demonstrably false...this is true on both sides of the "what I believe" debate.
 
Edited by Doc. Response to ballistic dung.


Bwerb,

So you come to your god through the rather classic ontological argument. That’s all well and good. Since something has to be greater than the greatest that you can imagine, you can call that god, that’s not a move I feel the need to make, but that does not mean that I do not recognize that there are thing currently beyond my understanding (anything beyond 4 dimensions boggles me) or beyond my explanation (where did the first life come from). But I do not feel the need to make a jump to the supernatural for an explanation, I’m happy to plod along, and see the great unknown shrink back a tiny bit into the darkness of mythology and superstition when illuminated by the sometime feeble beam of science. Knowledge grows every day. The great unknown shrinks every day. God shrinks every day. I don’t understand the willingness that folks seem to have to jump to superstition. From my frame of reference I can only interpret that as a lack of patience, and a fear of dying before they ever know.
 
i grew up in a Baptist church. i literally was born into the church, and my life was defined by the activities of the church (Sunday school, Sunday night service, Wednesday prayer meetings, envangelists visiting, summer Bible School, Christmas plays, Passion plays)

i learned the Bible as a child and i truly believed in God. by the time i was 13, i wanted to be a Pastor, perhaps a missionary.

around the time i was 15, i started seeing things that didn't make sense in the world. i started wondering what God did i worship? i decided it had to be dealt with through faith, and i tried to have faith in God even though i did not understand much of what was happening around me.

by the time i was 18, i had serious doubts that there was a God. it just didn't make sense.

around that time, i realized that praying was just talking to myself, and that believing in a God who would provide me with an afterlife was wishful thinking.

sometime between 18 and 19 years old, i stopped going to church. it was just too much of a farce. i didnt' believe anymore.

rather the truth, no matter how unpleasant, than soothing lies
 
Brian,

That's what I would call a reasonable way to have faith...not by arguing against evolution with errant information, but accepting that there is harmony between the idea of a god and what we can learn from science. While I do not share that belief, I can accept, respect, and relate to it much better.

What is beyond comprehension for me is the people in the young earth camp. Despite an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary, they insist that everything we know to be true is just plain wrong and make up crazy stories that try to fit square pegs into round holes by way of sawing off the edges. I really just cannot understand it.

Aaron
 
I know some Christians will roll their eyes at me and pitch me out of the camp but I totally agree with Soggy, Thalasamania and Andy (among others) that some of the crap that is held up in support of "Christian" beliefs is nothing short of unbelievable...at any definition of the word.

I cringe, I really cringe at some of it...

The thing is, although I can shake my head along with you on some of the arguments which are made and "debate" tactics, I have to come back to ask myself how the silliness of someone else affects my faith...it doesn't. Just as I can watch politicians whom I perhaps voted for and talking heads whom I think have it "right" on a number of issues "spin" the events of the day and come back with the realization that what they just said/espoused is blatantly false, it doesn't affect ME or my beliefs. I'm not willing to throw-out my faith because someone who claims the same "core" or "label" is saying something really stupid...I'll take what anyone says at face value, align it to what I have found to be true and take it from there.
 
Soggy:
What is beyond comprehension for me is the people in the young earth camp. Despite an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary, they insist that everything we know to be true is just plain wrong and make up crazy stories that try to fit square pegs into round holes by way of sawing off the edges. I really just cannot understand it.

Well spoken. I'd counter with, in many areas of life, there are similar arguments which can drive us all nuts in circles not understanding how "they can possibly believe that"...I get it everytime I talk to hardcore union representatives who can't understand why paying someone $28.00 an hour plus benefits to sweep the floor is economically unviable...and why .40 is an inferior round to .45 ACP...and why Highland Scotch is much preferable to Islay...

It all depends on where you place the "weight" of the evidences/explanations you are given...perspective is everything.
 
Doc has decided that this post offers absolutely no redeeming value whatever, and merely continues the aforementioned dung-flingery to new and unnecessary heights.
 
Soggy:
Here's another "gem" of rational thought:
Dinosaurmania

Exactly how big was Noah's ark supposed to be? And how did he manage to get a couple T-Rexes and Brontisauri on board?

No one said the creatures were full grown, or that dinosaurs were still extant by Noah's day.
 
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