Creation vs. Evolution

[ShallowDiverDave]

I never understood the phrase "god has called upon me" or "god has called me" or "god asked of me" ... what does this mean exactly? For you specifically, did you hear voices in your head? Did you have some event that you associated with god calling you? What was it exactly? The reason I ask is that I have had some particularly unbelievable events happen to me in my lifetime and I have found no way to explain (with science or logic) the origin or behavior of these events. I often wonder if others have had simalar events, and subsequently associated those with the supernatural. I do associate my events with something I don't understand, but I cannot assume anything in particular.

 

[H2Andy]

I never understood the phrase "god has called upon me" or "god has called me" or "god asked of me" ... what does this mean exactly?

there are people who believe God asked them to murder their children

and went ahead and did it


let me put it Kierkegaard's way

if the ethical is the highest and ultimate human end

then

there cannot be a theological suspension of the ethical

this, i believe, applies to God as well. can an ultimately pure and holy being engage in what is utlimately evil behavior (the incineration of billions of human beings)?

there's either something wrong with God or with some people's interpretation of God

 

[MikeFerrara]

they were all (Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John) written long after the deaths of their purported authors.

Mike, why doesn't a single one of the Gospels mentions who wrote it? Mark doesn't say, "I Mark, wrote this Gospel," for example. nor Matthew, Luke, nor John.

by the text of the Gospels, you can't tell who wrote them. only John, a much later Gospel, contains "hints" as to who it may be, and most serious scholars agree those are later additions.

the names were attached later, to give the Gospels credence and authority.

what you call the "pro" side amounts to, "we believe it was written by Mark, and since we've always believed that, we'll keep believing that no matter what the textual and historical evidence says"

that's fine, but it's not scholarship

We were all over this earlier in the thread so I'm not going back into it.

well, since Jesus said, "no one comes to the father but through me" and the boy didn't hear about Jesus, one would have to conclude that he's lost for eternity, no?

as you stated, it's God's way, and that's the way God chose

otherwise, Jesus's sacrifice would be in vain if some could get to the Father without Jesus

As I said, I don't really know. Don't be too shocked, there are other things I don't know. LOL

I will point out that we generally consider the Old Testament saints to have been saved even though they lived before Jesus. Their salvation was still through Jesus. I don't know that I could do a very good job of explaining that without spending some time digging up some scriptures. They, however, did know of God and had an inkling (or more) of where Gods salvation plan was going and had faith in it. Sorry7 I can't do better but though I'm a Christian I'm not a minister or thoelogen and answering questions like this is strictly a sideline. LOL

I'm just being honest with you by saying that I am not prepared to engage in a theological discussion of the eternal fate of one who is completely out of the loop.

I think Uncle Pug is the guy to ask.

 

[H2Andy]

i'm just trying to point out some issues which, no offense intended, i think you have left out of your beliefs in God

not so much to give you answers (which i don't have, btw) but to point out the fault lines ... things we need to think about deeply

We were all over this earlier in the thread so I'm not going back into it.

well, not even the Gospels tell us who wrote them. on their face, there is no way to tell who wrote them.

and the dating is pretty specific.

anyway... as in evolution, there is no real dispute here. the facts are what they are

(you'll never hear me arguing against the authorship of the early Pauline letters. those are Paul's letters. the facts are what they are)

 

[Midnight Star]

I could just as easily write a book and claim it is the word of god. It wouldn't be, it would be the word of man, but I could write "this is the word of god." Would you believe it? Why not?

If what you had said was the word of God, sure i'd believe it, but you'd also know that the spirit in me would also weigh your words against itself - it would have to wouldn't it, even to the point of testifying to itself? As we often testify to our own knowledge; in that the truth would be defined as to whether it was of you or of God. So if someone comes up to me and says, "Hey Mike, this is the right thing to do", if it was of God, i'd know it to be so, and do it. But if not ...

Many men have done just what your saying, as you've mentioned in your earlier posts ... differing religions and "intellectual properties" passed off as religion, and I don't follow them. Why am I not of them? To be honest, only God can say.

I think in the bible he already did say something like it, when he said that those that are of God hear God, and those that are not ... now as to whom is and isnt, only God knows.

It's a very weak argument to know something wasn't written by those who claim to have written it, yet just accept blindly that the words came from god. Since it claims to be the teachings and story of Jesus, how would someone, a century later, know what events transpired?

Weak argument? Not really. For example, "do not harm another because it's the right thing to do", isnt really understood until we experience harm for ourselves. Once we understand it's the right thing to do (be it through evoluntionary intellect, or just common sense) through experience, does it make it any less right? or weak? not knowing who said it first? Now, if quantify the experience by saying that all situations, with a given set of rules, if given the same circumstances, should statistically, give simuliar results, then no one really said it, as it's a given outcome. This is also interesting, but only attempts quantify the known; the unknown encompasses the known.

As i've said, if what was written in the gospels is the inspired word of God, then it wouldnt matter who wrote it, it would be true. Just as what i'm saying to you now is true.

What about the non-canonical gospels? Those were thrown out in the middle ages. Are they not the word of god? Why not?

I've read some of the other gospels (if that's what your referring to), those omitted from the KJV, and to me, they seemed "less authoritatvie" for some reason; almost as an add-on. Some of my favorite books though are:

Daniel, Psalms, Ezekiel and Isaiah.

-----

Mike.

 

[Soggy]

I can't make head or tail out of what you just wrote. What I got from that is, you are more qualified than the majority of the world's population to decide what is and what is not the word of god.

 

[MikeFerrara]

there are people who believe God asked them to murder their children

and went ahead and did it


let me put it Kierkegaard's way

if the ethical is the highest and ultimate human end

then

there cannot be a theological suspension of the ethical

this, i believe, applies to God as well. can an ultimately pure and holy being engage in what is utlimately evil behavior (the incineration of billions of human beings)?

there's either something wrong with God or with some people's interpretation of God

God talks to us in lots of ways. Other things including our own feelings speak to us also so we need to be careful. We know that our feelings and our own hearts are not always reliable and sometimes flat out wicked but there are even worse things out there.

The measure is the word of God that we already have, the Bible. If you think you're being spoken to but what you're hearing isn't Biblical, you know it isn't comming from God. This is one reason that it's important to know scripture.

 

[Thalassamania]

Which then leads to counter-debate about air ... is it tangible or intangible? It's tangible because science says it exists (molecules, plus we need it to breathe), but intangible since we can directly see it. We see the results like wind, moisture or pollution, but not the air molecules themselves. To christians, God is real, a real being that is both tangible and intangible; they feel and believe in creations both visible and invisible which science might refer to as energy or electromagnetic waves. To a christian, the bible mentions that a son or daughter of God knows of these things, both the visible and invisible creation. Remember, i'm not debating or offering to change a particular point of view, just extra thoughts.

Mike, you can not equate the concrete demonstrable and provable with the unverified, unverifiable, remnants of bronze age mythos. Especially when you can’t figure out if air is tangible or intangible. My ten year old can demonstrate that air is quite tangible (as he did last night) by pouring one glass of air into another whilst in his bath. Please show me such a straightforward and yet clear demonstration of god.

In closing, i'd hope that each person wouldnt judge a "christian" by those that have done things that were not of God or Christ, merely because they call themselves such. In the bible, christians didnt call themselves that ... they were called that by non-christians when they saw how they behaved themselves; christ like and following his teachings. The non-believers were their judges.

All Christians hope that they are not judged by those who’ve come before, because they have a lot to atone for. I judge people by the company that they keep, current and historical. The best way to judge future performance is to examine past performance. On that basis Christianity is at best highly schizophrenic.

 

[Midnight Star]

I never understood the phrase "god has called upon me" or "god has called me" or "god asked of me" ... what does this mean exactly? For you specifically, did you hear voices in your head? Did you have some event that you associated with god calling you? What was it exactly? The reason I ask is that I have had some particularly unbelievable events happen to me in my lifetime and I have found no way to explain (with science or logic) the origin or behavior of these events. I often wonder if others have had simalar events, and subsequently associated them with the supernatural. I do associate them with something I don't understand, but I cannot assume anything in particular.

I wish I could explain it, I really do. No, it's not like hearing a voice in my head, or even getting everything I want (I have to be the poorest person on this earth! - and goodness knows i'd like to have alot more! - oh greedy person I am).

It's like confronting an enemy and all of a sudden you can see through their eyes, and you lose yourself, not to them or their ways, but to understanding ... and your enemy is gone; though they'd still bury you in a heartbeat.

It's like your conscious mind saying, stand your ground and box them back, defend yourself and your knowledge, your knowledge it you ... then all that being taken away (you can actually feel it just fade away), and you just know what's the right thing to say and do; like a voice that you know is talking but can really discern it, directed at your unconscious mind. Maybe that's what they mean by listening ... to the conscious mind, you can really hear anything, but you can still hear.

It's more of a spiritual thing I guess than physical. I know that sounds pretty cheesy, but it's the best way I can explain it.

-----

Mike.

 

[Midnight Star]

Mike, you can not equate the concrete demonstrable and provable with the unverified, unverifiable, remnants of bronze age mythos. Especially when you can’t figure out if air is tangible or intangible. My ten year old can demonstrate that is quite tangible

Ouch! You got me there huh?

-----

Mike.