Midnight Star
Contributor
I'm not sure if I can help here, but let me see if I can add just a tad to the discussion:
Each side basically, whether left or right, extreme or liberal (i'm not necessarily talking about religion, just in general), has to have some basis of authority for their belief. Without that authority, we fall in the census of opinion since each one of us is our own best authority to ourselves. Those that don't believe in God, like to fall upon science and the tangible; if it fits in my hand it's real, if it doesn't it's not. Which then leads to counter-debate about air ... is it tangible or intangible? It's tangible because science says it exists (molecules, plus we need it to breathe), but intangible since we can directly see it. We see the results like wind, moisture or pollution, but not the air molecules themselves. To christians, God is real, a real being that is both tangible and intangible; they feel and believe in creations both visible and invisible which science might refer to as energy or electromagnetic waves. To a christian, the bible mentions that a son or daughter of God knows of these things, both the visible and invisible creation. Remember, i'm not debating or offering to change a particular point of view, just extra thoughts.
To a christian, the bible is the highest authority and covers quite a few areas. Here are just a few: "From dust that art made and unto dust though shalt return". All things created are from this design, made of things that exist in the earth, and after death, all the minerals and elements that brought the being to life will return to it's base elements. Some might call that science, others call it a wonder. To christians, the bible merely states what is; we were made from dust, and to dust we return.
It's when biblical passages are taken outside of the simple context in which they represent, we get the collisions we are seeing quite frequently here. So to quickly sum up, those that don't believe in God see proof in science, those that do, see proof in faith. If we can keep that in context to my intention here, I might be able to help ... those that beleive use the bible as an authority, while those that dont, not only see it as laughable but dismiss it entirely.
I'll give this a try...
Because in the bible, God said that he would call those that desire him. I don't beleive it's an open, "hey dude, look at me i'm being a godly person!" kinda thing (that would be by works, and not all people are the same, and if by works judgement would be biased - the bible says that God isnt biased). It also says that he is the only judge of our hearts (the hidden areas of the mind and soul that others cant see); if we desire him from the heart, he will bring us to him. So to sum that one up, God has done the calling, those that chose to answer, merely answered.
Again, i'll take this from a christian's point of view since they're the ones being questioned, and to do that, i'll need to take the bible as the authority here: The bible says that since man started, he's been constantly moving away from God - kinda doing his own thing. Which, as the bible progresses, basically says that "straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that finds it". Interestingly, it doesnt say that because it defines God as being angry because in the next passage it say "Because broad is the way, and wide is the gate that leads to destruction". That was from the new testament, which in the old testament is a reference to "Hell has enlarged it's borders" - not because God keeps stuffing them there, but because the more man does his own thing, creating his own god and ways, the more death and hell is enlarged; he has gone away from his Creator and the creator of life (both physical and spirtual).
This is not meant to inflame or convince others of a christians belief, since to a true christian, only God can bring about that type of "conversion". Envangelists using guilt, fear, physical war, force and behaviour modification techniques isn't God's way ... they are serving their own needs. A true christian is here to serve as Christ said (He was here to mininster, not to be ministered to), as given example in the New Testament; not all things done in the name of Christ or christianity are of God - anyone can claim anything at anytime.
I was hoping to show that each side is trying to reach a reproof, one of another, without understanding the source of authority each side is using. By first doing that, it's really easy to understand where both sides are coming from (well, most of them anyways).
In closing, i'd hope that each person wouldnt judge a "christian" by those that have done things that were not of God or Christ, merely because they call themselves such. In the bible, christians didnt call themselves that ... they were called that by non-christians when they saw how they behaved themselves; christ like and following his teachings. The non-believers were their judges.
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Mike.
Each side basically, whether left or right, extreme or liberal (i'm not necessarily talking about religion, just in general), has to have some basis of authority for their belief. Without that authority, we fall in the census of opinion since each one of us is our own best authority to ourselves. Those that don't believe in God, like to fall upon science and the tangible; if it fits in my hand it's real, if it doesn't it's not. Which then leads to counter-debate about air ... is it tangible or intangible? It's tangible because science says it exists (molecules, plus we need it to breathe), but intangible since we can directly see it. We see the results like wind, moisture or pollution, but not the air molecules themselves. To christians, God is real, a real being that is both tangible and intangible; they feel and believe in creations both visible and invisible which science might refer to as energy or electromagnetic waves. To a christian, the bible mentions that a son or daughter of God knows of these things, both the visible and invisible creation. Remember, i'm not debating or offering to change a particular point of view, just extra thoughts.
To a christian, the bible is the highest authority and covers quite a few areas. Here are just a few: "From dust that art made and unto dust though shalt return". All things created are from this design, made of things that exist in the earth, and after death, all the minerals and elements that brought the being to life will return to it's base elements. Some might call that science, others call it a wonder. To christians, the bible merely states what is; we were made from dust, and to dust we return.
It's when biblical passages are taken outside of the simple context in which they represent, we get the collisions we are seeing quite frequently here. So to quickly sum up, those that don't believe in God see proof in science, those that do, see proof in faith. If we can keep that in context to my intention here, I might be able to help ... those that beleive use the bible as an authority, while those that dont, not only see it as laughable but dismiss it entirely.
I'll give this a try...
Soggy:
Because in the bible, God said that he would call those that desire him. I don't beleive it's an open, "hey dude, look at me i'm being a godly person!" kinda thing (that would be by works, and not all people are the same, and if by works judgement would be biased - the bible says that God isnt biased). It also says that he is the only judge of our hearts (the hidden areas of the mind and soul that others cant see); if we desire him from the heart, he will bring us to him. So to sum that one up, God has done the calling, those that chose to answer, merely answered.
Again, i'll take this from a christian's point of view since they're the ones being questioned, and to do that, i'll need to take the bible as the authority here: The bible says that since man started, he's been constantly moving away from God - kinda doing his own thing. Which, as the bible progresses, basically says that "straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that finds it". Interestingly, it doesnt say that because it defines God as being angry because in the next passage it say "Because broad is the way, and wide is the gate that leads to destruction". That was from the new testament, which in the old testament is a reference to "Hell has enlarged it's borders" - not because God keeps stuffing them there, but because the more man does his own thing, creating his own god and ways, the more death and hell is enlarged; he has gone away from his Creator and the creator of life (both physical and spirtual).
The bible covers this by saying that no man can come to God or his Son, except God himself calls them. So to a christian, God is in complete control ...even when all things seem to converge upon them and they shrink away to nothing ("My strength is made manifest in weakness" - those of greatest faith still hold their belief no matter what - this is true in more ways than just religion). This implies that most will not heed God's call, and basically do their own thing (for various reasons). Remember the bible says "Broad is the way and wide is the gate that leadeth to destruction". I don't think that's a na na na na pooey on you, just a simple statement of fact.
This is not meant to inflame or convince others of a christians belief, since to a true christian, only God can bring about that type of "conversion". Envangelists using guilt, fear, physical war, force and behaviour modification techniques isn't God's way ... they are serving their own needs. A true christian is here to serve as Christ said (He was here to mininster, not to be ministered to), as given example in the New Testament; not all things done in the name of Christ or christianity are of God - anyone can claim anything at anytime.
I was hoping to show that each side is trying to reach a reproof, one of another, without understanding the source of authority each side is using. By first doing that, it's really easy to understand where both sides are coming from (well, most of them anyways).
In closing, i'd hope that each person wouldnt judge a "christian" by those that have done things that were not of God or Christ, merely because they call themselves such. In the bible, christians didnt call themselves that ... they were called that by non-christians when they saw how they behaved themselves; christ like and following his teachings. The non-believers were their judges.
-----
Mike.
