Creation vs. Evolution

[H2Andy]

The assumption that we know a lot about anything pales before reality.

but we know more today than we did yesterday

if we stopped trying to learn anything because "we could never know it all," then we'd still be in the stone age eating raw monkey*

likewise, just because we can't know it all doesn't mean we shouldn't try to answer what questions we have

hey, we've come up with open heart surgery, scuba, and ESPN ... come on... let the chimps do half as good!



*the author does not recommend that you eat raw monkey. eating raw monkey could lead to a number of communicable diseases, mental retardation, and the urge to post on ScubaBoard

 

[adurso]

Ahhhh.... yesss... yes, Grasshopper, but which, and, who decides? Allow me to elucidate, if only a little.
Once upon a time, I took a little graduate economics. The professor was demonstrating some principle using differential math to prove a point - all very impressive, fancy and compelling.
But what about *real* economics in the real world?
In the fall of 1985 the chairman of the Fed mentioned that he wouldn't mind seeing the dollar lose a little of its value on world currency markets. The very next day the dollar lost 20% against the mark; within three months it was half the price it had been the day the remark was made.
A PhD in economics doesn't guarantee wealth, and the extrapolation of the best in economic theory is often way off the mark in the real world. And without the historical record, it is as off looking at the past as it is looking to the future. Yet economic experts cling to their mathematical models as tenaciously as a barnacle to a piling.
But, but... there are just too many unknowns, too many factors, too many uncertainties, they say, and the theories are sound...
I find it fascinating that the same folks who cannot forecast the weather or the economic conditions half a year hence with any accuracy (are those not subject to scientific exploration and explanation?) are so certain of the accuracy of their conjectures drawn from current available observations and mathematical extrapolations on the nature of things 20 billion years ago. "20 billion years ago" - even that is subject to where you measure it, where you stand in the cosmos, and what you measure it against... "relative to what?"
On a galactic scale, what Rick and Soggy do is of infinite insignificance. Isn't it grand that even in our infinitesimally small corner of the universe there is vast wonder for us to explore and to contemplate. The assumption that we know a lot about anything pales before reality.
"For now we see through a glass darkly, but then, face to face."
Rick

Economic studies and theories depend upon ceteris paribus, a phrase usually translated as "All other things being equal". In the real world all other things are not equal, therefore predictive models based upon this concept are doomed at the outset. A true economist will readily admit to this. I had the great misfortune of being required to take several doctoral level econ classes (my advisor made me, said it would be good for me). The professors did not speak american english as we know it, they spoke economics. When I asked how the concept of all other things being equal applied to the real world, I received a puzzled look, and the reply: "It does not apply" Economics depends upon the behavior of people, and as you noted with the drop in dollar value, the behavior of people cannot be explained.

 

[radinator]

Perhaps, but it sure wasn't a dinosaur if someone wrote about it after seeing it.

Why couldn't someone have written about it after seeing the fossilized bones? After all, dinosaurs in Europe were thought to be remains of dragons. Why assume that no fossils were ever discovered until paleontologists started doing expeditions?

Or, the whole thing could have been hyperbole, with the writer describing an animal he never saw, and just describing it from legend. After all, there are descriptions of the pegasus in literature - that doesn't mean it actually existed.

 

[Cacia]

sorry to interupt...but you have to admit this pm is funny.

How come these guys aren't going door to door and trying to convert the Christians into scientists?

you must feel good knowing you have a vast audience.

 

[adurso]

sorry to interupt...but you have to admit this pm is funny.



you must feel good knowing you have a vast audience.

In my spare time I do roam the neighborhoods attempting to convert Christians...does not everyone? When I worked plainclothes and was really bored I would stand on the streetcorner with the bible shouters and ask them questions; "Did Joshua ben Nun really stop the earth's rotation for three days for trivial purposes?" and so on. Sometimes they even called the police on me. When the uniforms would arrive and recognize me they would shake their heads and drive off. Boss finally told me to find another hobby...

 

[H2Andy]

"Did Joshua ben Nun really stop the earth's rotation for three days for trivial purposes?"

ah, excuse me ... he had a battle to win???

like, hello? (and btw, it was more like a long day ... longish .... day-ish... like)

(and you don't need to get the Earth to stop .... you just need some artificial source of light ... say ... like a bizzillion nuclear warheads going off ... in like, 2000 BC ... )


speaking of which, why are there certain people who believe that if you don't believe in the Christian God your life is meaningless and you are doomed to fry in Hell for eternity ....

and then say other people are not tolerant of their beliefs?

and call themselves the voice of reason?

and nobody calls them on it?

:34:

 

[adurso]

ah, excuse me ... he had a battle to win???

like, hello? (and btw, it was more like a long day ... longish .... day-ish... like)

(and you don't need to get the Earth to stop .... you just need some artificial source of light ... say ... like a bizzillion nuclear warheads going off ... in like, 2000 BC ... )

Well, jeez, why did they never share that with me? Now I know

speaking of which, why are there certain people who believe that if you don't believe in the Christian God your life is meaningless and you are doomed to fry in Hell for eternity ....

Well, because you are, helllooooo?


and then say other people are not tolerant of their beliefs?

and call themselves the voice of reason?

and nobody calls them on it?

:34:

I have been told I am damned sooo many times for asking why quietly witnessing is not an option......

 

[adza]

Hi,

Sorry the joke misfired.

No Worries adurso... I didn't quite see the joke - but hey - we are from different countries.

The In 6 Days book is a collection of essays by folks who are indeed scientists, but not in fields that apply to evolution. The scientific findings you allege are addressed by the essay posted by Thal. If you had read my post you notice that i did read one of the essays. This essay again trots out such science as the application of the second law of thermodynamics to biological entities. If you understood the second law you would realize it does not apply to biological systems. This has been hashed out over and over again.

True - one scientist does look at the second law - but this is one scientist in 50. Correct me if I'm wrong - but I'm guessing that you've only read one of the essays - and probably found it by reference from a site designed to discredit the whole book? Check out the other 49 scientists - you may find they have more credit than you give them reference.

(I'm sure if the tables were reversed and 50 evolutionists wrote a scientific book, one or two may portray something that doesn't fit in with the current model.)


On another note - I have started going through from the beginning of the thread, but it's going to take me a while. I hope I'm permitted to at least respond to responses from original mesages. (Soggy - I'll still get back to you on the other stuff, I just need to reference what has and hasn't been said on this thread first).

Cheers

 

[adza]

Catherine, the problem with the "Poor Aussie" had nothing to do with what side of the issue he was standing on. It was that he was completely unprepared but says, "I respect decisions (regardless of which way someone decides to believe) even though I don't have to agree with it - but only when the person has been dilligent (sic) in their research."

Anyone, on any side, that comes into a discussion and accuses me, or Lamont, or Soggy, or Mike, Pug, or Pete, et. al. of not having been diligent, or suggests that I get my information from TV (or any of several other things that might not bother you, but that make my blood boil) and who has not even bothered to read the thread, has hoist himself on his own petard. I just offered him a light for the fuse.

I will be amongst the first to welcome him back once he's caught himself up.

Thalassamania,

Edit: <Deleted> - I've just come across some posts you've answered previous.

I am currently going through the thread at the moment, and as stated in my previous post, may take me some time. I have noticed however, reading from the start that you called someone else "My Dear", but have jumped on me for the statement "My Friend". (Similar phrase in my books.) I'd just like to ask for a little give and take - and to please accept my original apology regarding your study as I stand corrected - you have mentioned things previous, which I've been reading through. (I have paper cuts to prove it

)

Thanks

 

[Hank49]

but we know more today than we did yesterday

if we stopped trying to learn anything because "we could never know it all," then we'd still be in the stone age eating raw monkey*

likewise, just because we can't know it all doesn't mean we shouldn't try to answer what questions we have

hey, we've come up with open heart surgery, scuba, and ESPN ... come on... let the chimps do half as good!



d

I agree 100% Andy. We just have to be careful not to jump to conclusions too quickly. In contemplating the cosmos, there's not much harm done, but in growing shrimp, or defending a client, there could be alot of harm done by drawing uninformed conclusions and acting upon them. I think that's the point.