Creation vs. Evolution

[mikerault]

Well said fire diver.

I can do a radioactive isotope balance calculation on long lived radioisotopes in the same element and assuming that they all had the same initial starting concentration they all seem to point to 4.5 billion plus or minus for the age of the earth.

Looking at the (incomplete) fossil record (come on folks, how many can track their own bank statements for the last thirty and yet you want a complete fossil record for the last 4.5 billion? Give me a break...) we see evidence of the change from one type of creature into another, call it what ever you like.

Look up the meaning of the word metaphore.

I believe in God and Jesus, do I take the Bible as the unchanged word of God down from the ages? No. You can trace it's evolution from the first manuscripts (unfortunately their fossil record is also incomplete) down to its present form. Where is the indelible word of God? In the first manuscript or in the latest "retranslation for the modern man"?

Oh...and as to that bit about multiplying....enough already, let's see some responsibility!

Mike

 

[Spragg01]

:lol:

Please, allow me to save you time. The premise of this debate is "God exists".

On one side is the entirely unprovable argument "Does not!"

On the opposing side is the equally unprovable argument "Does too!"

One side considers the other side to be comprised of undereducated heathens.

The other side considers their counterparts to be comrpised of undereducated zealots.

There, consider yourself up to date. You're now ready to enter the debate on either, or both, sides.

Not exactly the same debate, but one with similar proveability. I don't think you can embed here, so here's the URL as well. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KBqcOxIzTY

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[OHGoDive]

Since there have been over 900 posts, and this keeps popping to the top of the list of new posts, I'd like to see a show of hands.

At this point, has anyone who has posted to this thread been even slightly swayed from their own original position by anything that they've read or otherwise thought about since posting?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

That, I believe, is the fallacy of religious debate. Always has been, always will be. If someone has an idea in their head that is based solely upon religous belief, no amount of logic, reason, proof, or evidence is going to change it. Ever.

Sort of like trying to convince my wife that if she buys something we don't need, that she hasn't actually "saved" us any money, despite using a coupon for said item. Not gonna change her mind. Ever.

Save your fingers for the winnable arguments... like MOF.

 

[Thalassamania]

You offend me Thalassamenia (sic):
There is no socially redeeming value to your argument & viewpoint --other than a subtle but nonetheless vile bigotry all under the guise of "Academic Discourse". . .

Tell me . . .what's your fascination with being Evil???

Considering where you&#8217;re coming from, and just in relation to this discussion for I know that we hold common opinions in other areas, I take that as a high complement.

You really don&#8217;t need to be so thin skinned; after all you've got God on your side:
Matthew 18:5
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[MikeFerrara]

OK, to keep it simple...



How is:

Quote:
...Gods wisdom and justice is perfect therefor whoever is deserving of Hell will end up there...not one person too many nor one too few.

not the foundation of:

Quote:
Kill them all. God will know his own.



I'm talking about the second part. Clearly it's there.

You've just said again that God has the perfect post mortem traffic regulation. No one misses their destination. I say this makes it easier to justify killing in the name of God through religious wars and conquests and I have history on my side to prove this.

I don't see where the first statement says, or even remotely implies, anything about killing anybody.

As far as what could be used to justify a religious war or conquest, I have no idea. Since when do people need any kind of real justification to kill or go to war?

 

[redacted]

:lol:

Please, allow me to save you time. The premise of this debate is "God exists".

On one side is the entirely unprovable argument "Does not!"

On the opposing side is the equally unprovable argument "Does too!"

I don't think that is it at all. I believe the question is not of the existance of god; but whether god created man or man created god.

 

[MikeFerrara]

On a more serious note.....

I think the problem with both sides of the arguments presented is one of rigidity and intollerance. Some people saying, 'There is no proof of God, so I don't think God exists,' with the other side saying 'I see the evidence of God all around me every day.'

As for the whole bible topic... :shakehead

It's a book. It is a compilation of writings from many authors. Some of these writing have been transcribed and translated over and over. Errors in such occured. Hundreds of years ago, a bunch of guys got together and threw out what writings and authors they didn't like. For any christian (myself included) to take the words of the bible as verbatim, is a farce of a sham of a travesty. Read the book, look at the intent, be a good person.

So much squabbeling over minutia.

FD

Actually I do read the book and the statement "be a good person" doesn't accurately reflect the intent of the book at all. It's a history of God's relationship with man and an outline of God's plan for salvation. You can't be good enough which is why Jesus came. His comming having been fortold from the very first book of the Bible (Genesis) and fulfilled in the last books of the Bible (the New Testament).

The real travesty in Christianity, IMO, is that Christians aren't taught what the book is or what it says or it's significance.

As far as transcribed or translation errors, it is remarkably consistant from the newest translations to the oldest know manuscripts.

 

[mislav]

Sure it is. God decides who goes to Hell but we decide who we kill. God's wisdom and justice is perfect while ours is flawed. We can kill the wrong person but God will not send the wrong person to Hell.

I don't see where the first statement says, or even remotely implies, anything about killing anybody.

Hmmm...

I don't think that is it at all. I belive the question is not of the existance of god; but whether god created man or man created god.

In this case I believe in both Creation and Evolution. I believe man created God and the God has been evolving ever since.

 

[MikeFerrara]

...I hope we can all agree that at least that portion of the document is exaggerated. And if that piece is a huge exaggeration, what of the rest of the document?

Why would we agree on any such thing. You base your perception of what "must" be exaggerated on what is possible or likely today for you. God, of course, has no such limitations and when the Bible gives the age of a person or the number of children they have, I certainly do believe it.

You are right about one thing and that is, if we can't trust the Bible in one regard we can't trust it in another.

 

[MikeFerrara]

A couple quick points...

To those who keep pointing out that nobodies mind is being changed by the thread,

I don't think that's the point. It's a conversation mostly for the purpose of conversing....passing time...entertainment...the exchange of thoughts, ideas and information. there is no requirement that any thread on this board change any minds or solve any problems.

To those on either side who may be offended, don't be. Those who believe the Bible should not be surprised that there are those who don't believe and will never believe. Those that don't believe should not be surprised when believers are not swayed by ideas presented as science when it's contrary to what we believe to be the word of God. A major (or at least recurring) theme throughout the Bible is to caution against trusting mans wisdom over God's.

So both sides should know the other exists whether we converse together or not. Out in the real world there are examples of one group forcing their beliefes on another and that is offensive. However, this isn't the real world and that's not what we are doing here.