Creation vs. Evolution

[peterbj7]

The modern Satan is an amalgam of biblical misunderstandings that conveniently provide a bad guy who carries out the torture of the wicked so that we don't have to imagine God doing it himself

As I said earlier, the whole shooting match is written by men to suit their own ends. The concept of "Satan" is just a part.

modern fundamentalism (as I was raised in) has an intractable need for a Satan character

Of course! To create total and unthinking social cohesion (that can then be manipulated by the people in control) there has to be a common enemy. That's ingrained into every soldier in times of war, as otherwise their controllers couldn't be sure that they would kill on command. "1984" and "Animal Farm" both rely on their being some common enemy which necessitates people banding together for the common good. There are numerous other instances.

The only part I question is your saying this is required by Fundamentalism. IMO it's required by all monotheistic religions.


What's happened to our friend? He seems to have gone a bit quiet.

 

[deco_martini]

Of course! To create total and unthinking social cohesion (that can then be manipulated by the people in control) there has to be a common enemy. That's ingrained into every soldier in times of war, as otherwise their controllers couldn't be sure that they would kill on command. "1984" and "Animal Farm" both rely on their being some common enemy which necessitates people banding together for the common good. There are numerous other instances.

No offense, but that sounds like that kind of blah-blah-blah the guy who pours my coffee at starbucks starts talking about when there no customers around. The truth is it is just a belief for most part passed on by well meaning people. It has no banding effect on my mother who honestly believes it. As with most fundamentalists, there is are equal parts of dogma and apathy and in their beliefs.

 

[peterbj7]

I'm sure there are people who just believe it anyway, like your mother, but I'm equally sure there's a lot of what I said. It's such a simple and predictable ploy it would HAVE to exist!

 

[Spencermm]

Spencermm - surely this is just semantics. If the Devil is a real entity and has a will, which is certainly in accordance with Christian theology, then he/it can be termed a god. Taking "god" as any supernatural personal being that has some effect upon people, which again is consistent with inter alia Christian theology.

Your opening comment intrigues me. Given the profound differences between the numerous different sects of Christianity, and given that the term "I am a Christian" implies adherence to the dogma of one of these sects, how can you be a Christian of uncertain denomination? If you mean that you feel "spiritual" and wish to follow the general moral precepts of Christianity then that's different. Many people have an inner feeling of "morality" and "responsibility", generally attuned to the social culture of their upbringing, but that doesn't make them Christians. If they come from a Christian-dominated culture they might not see much difference, but they could have much the same moral outlook in say a Bhuddist culture, and that wouldn't any more make them Bhuddists.

Enormous numbers of people, the vast bulk of the population in fact, hold deeply felt moral beliefs, which are generally no more than is dictated by a need to exist within a society of other people. These moral obligations are common to pretty well all religions and certainly all monotheistic ones, but were adopted by those religions, not invented by them.

Hey Peter,
I'm certainly no authority on the Bible (I hate to admit this, but I'm not as intellectual as many of the people on this thread either), but I'm pretty sure that it says that we will one day set in judgement on the angels. Without looking it up(I'm not into looking stuff up to prove a point), it seems like I recall that they are more like servants to man. If I am right, then no- I would not consider lucifer a god.
I didn't say that I am a Christian of "uncertain denomination". I said no particular denomination. If I had to put a label on mysellf I suppose it would be protestant, but I claim to be of no denomination- baptist, methodist, pentecostal, etc. I simply haven't found a denomination thats a good fit for me. I'm not looking to fit either- maybe that makes me not a very good Christian:11:. Oh well....
You make good points on morality. I did not hold deeply felt moral beliefs before becoming a Christian. I was embarassingly immoral from a very early age, with some mildly sociopathic tendencies. I can't really explain it, but the more I got into my faith, the more my sociopathy diminished. Kinda changed from the inside out. Thank God, because I was a good candidate for for the prison system.

 

[nereas]

Hey Peter,
I'm certainly no authority on the Bible (I hate to admit this, but I'm not as intellectual as many of the people on this thread either), but I'm pretty sure that it says that we will one day set in judgement on the angels. Without looking it up(I'm not into looking stuff up to prove a point), it seems like I recall that they are more like servants to man. If I am right, then no- I would not consider lucifer a god.
I didn't say that I am a Christian of "uncertain denomination". I said no particular denomination. If I had to put a label on mysellf I suppose it would be protestant, but I claim to be of no denomination- baptist, methodist, pentecostal, etc. I simply haven't found a denomination thats a good fit for me. I'm not looking to fit either- maybe that makes me not a very good Christian:11:. Oh well....
You make good points on morality. I did not hold deeply felt moral beliefs before becoming a Christian. I was embarassingly immoral from a very early age, with some mildly sociopathic tendencies. I can't really explain it, but the more I got into my faith, the more my sociopathy diminished. Kinda changed from the inside out. Thank God, because I was a good candidate for for the prison system.

Spencer, the English word "angel" comes from the Greek word "aggellos" in the Greek New Testament which means "messenger."

I had a great weekend scuba diving. I hope everyone else here did as well.

 

[nereas]

You should respect other faiths more and not try to inject your own into others.

For Jews, anything that even remotely conflicts with the idea that God is One and Indivisible will be rejected because it precludes true, pure, monotheism. The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism. Other faiths had this same duality:

Unfortunately for you, your doctrine is inconsistent with the writings of the major prophet Isaiah. Take a look for yourself.

 

[Sas]

You make good points on morality. I did not hold deeply felt moral beliefs before becoming a Christian. I was embarassingly immoral from a very early age, with some mildly sociopathic tendencies. I can't really explain it, but the more I got into my faith, the more my sociopathy diminished. Kinda changed from the inside out. Thank God, because I was a good candidate for for the prison system.

Interesting. I was the opposite. I was fairly immoral whilst I was not a Christian as I felt all things were already predetermined so why bother trying? Among other things. Actually I probably wasn't that bad but as I was raised to believe I was a terrible sinner from birth it kind of stuck in my mind. Anyway, since I became an atheist I find myself a far more tolerant, and a much more happy person. The constant feelings of guilt have also vanished. But hey, whatever works for you.

Unfortunately your doctrine is inconsistent with the writing of the major prophet Isaiah. Take a look.

Take a look at your own neares.

Also, yes I had a great weekend diving! Glad to hear you did too.

 

[ekremer]

Unfortunately for you, your doctrine is inconsistent with the writings of the major prophet Isaiah. Take a look for yourself.

I took your advice and read up on Isaiah a bit...mainly using online translations I admit, but im lazy. However I found this interesting tidbit.
BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Isaiah 44:6-8

"This is what the LORD says—
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

and from What Jews Believe

saiah 44:6 tell us that, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." When Isaiah tells us that God said, "I am the first," it means that God has no father. When Isaiah tells us that God said, "I am the last," it means that God has no literal son. And when Isaiah tells us that God said, "Besides me there is no God," it means that God does not share being God with any other god, or demi-god, or semi-god, or persons.

so uh yeah...About that Jesus Fellow.

 

[peterbj7]

ekremer - thank you very much for that post. I went to your references and found them very interesting. Particularly the second. Makes me realise that if I were ever to believe in a personal God (which isn't going to happen any time soon) and in particular in monotheism, I'd be far more inclined toward Judaism than any of the religions it spawned (and yes, I know what I'm saying). It contains fewer contrivances.

 

[nereas]

I took your advice and read up on Isaiah a bit...mainly using online translations I admit, but im lazy. However I found this interesting tidbit.
BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: Isaiah 44:6-8

"This is what the LORD says—
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

and from What Jews Believe

saiah 44:6 tell us that, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." When Isaiah tells us that God said, "I am the first," it means that God has no father. When Isaiah tells us that God said, "I am the last," it means that God has no literal son. And when Isaiah tells us that God said, "Besides me there is no God," it means that God does not share being God with any other god, or demi-god, or semi-god, or persons.

so uh yeah...About that Jesus Fellow.

That is a nice side show, EK, however more to the point, you had asked where HELAL comes from, earlier. As I said, you need to look in Isaiah. Since you admit to being lazy, as you said, I will save you some work, and tell you to look in Isaiah Chap 14 verse 12:

In Hebrew, the phrase reads "AIC NFLT MSMIM HILAL" using Latin letters. Ask your rabbi, if you cannot read it.