Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

ah, what's the question? i must have missed it (nice dig at my real life profession, btw... you know, Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors, which are just slightly more acceptable than lawyers )

It wasn't meant as a dig really.

alas, it seems that we differ in our interpretation of the passage. i am going from the textual context and what the writer wrote, not the reams of papers written by theologians centuries later.

Well but you seem to be going by the context that result from isolating two verses which is taking it out of context, IMO.

Aside from you and a few of those Bible skeptic websites, I can find anyone else who even associates Mathew 16 with the end times at all. Even the heading at the top of the page in my New King James Bible gives it away...with "The Trasfiguration" over Matthew 16 and "The Great Tribulation" over Matthew 24.


BTW, I did find this on CS Lewis.

C. S. Lewis said that Matt. 24:34 is "certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible." Lewis got it backwards. C. S. Lewis is an embarrassing example of a Christian exegete, and futurism is certainly the most embarrassingly erroneous interpretation of the Bible in Church history.

I found similar statements in several places but no mention of Matthew 16.

From what I did find regarding the writing of CS Lewis in the last hour or so, I get the impression that he was a so called christian who picked and chose his way through the Bible inventing his own doctrine as he went. He seems to be more of a "seeker sensitive"/"promise keeper" movement sort of a guy. To each their own but that's not where I would go for help in studying the Bible. The analogy may not be exactly correct but it explains the huge book sales. He seemed more interested in the value system and life style than he was in anything that God has to say. If you're going to pick this part but not that part, change this and move that around a little, why not just get a book that you like better, or write your own? Oh, he did write his own. LOL In short, I personally would not consider him an authority on anything other than selling large numbers of books.

one more interesting quote from the Bible:

Mark 10:21

Jesus looking at him loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack. Go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me, taking up the cross."

i dont' know any Christians alive today that have sold all they have and given it to the poor, do you?

That's an easy one to answer. No, I don't know anyone who has sold everything and gave it away.

What's more interesting is what follows. Namely that the man decides that the price is too high and leaves, helping to make the point that it is in fact hard for the rich to enter the Kingdon of God. Not because they are wealthy but because the wealth is too important to them. Maybe Jesus would have said more to him had the man not made such a hasty retreat in order to keep his property?

In Mark 10:24 Jesus says in answer to the desciples astonishment "Children, how hard is it for those who trust in riches to enter the Kingdom of God!" 25 "It is esier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God. "

Matthew 6:21 "For where you treasure is, there your heart will be also."
And
Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to one and dispise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

 

[H2Andy]

well... i guess what i am hearing from you is that when Jesus said there will still be some of his listeners alive when he came back in the glory of the Father and the angels to give to each their due, he didn't mean that?

and when he said to a possible follower, sell all you have and give it to the poor, and then come, follow me, he didn't mean that either?

seems like the difficult things he said, he didn't mean... but ok, fine enough.
if you're happy with your answers to those issues, that's all that counts.
i simply wasn't happy with those answers.

here's one last question. what were Jesus's finals words?

Matt.27:46,50: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ... Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

[the Gospel of Mark also has "Eli, eli..." as Jesus's last words]

Luke23:46: And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

 

[SeaYoda]

textually, it is clear to me he is talking about the second coming (ymmv)...

A different view of the text is that "kingdom" refers back to the original subject of Jesus' discussion:

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
KJV

Matt 16:28-17:1
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
KJV

The original subject was who Christ was and the building of His church. The church of Christ is synonymous with the kingdom of heaven. Jesus' church was not in existence until he died for it. Jesus concludes His original thought in verse 28, they would be alive when the kingdom = church came. On the day of Pentecost following the Crucifixion, the church was established - the kingdom came while some of those who were there were still alive.

 

[SeaYoda]

...
here's one last question. what were Jesus's finals words?

Matt.27:46,50: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ... Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

[the Gospel of Mark also has "Eli, eli..." as Jesus's last words]

Luke23:46: And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

All of them. In getting the story from eyewitnesses for a court case, why do they need all the stories? Each reveals a part of the truth from where they stood. Same is true of the eyewitnesses here - no one lied and all are true and make up the whole picture. If it were necessary for us to know the exact last words of Jesus, for whatever reason, we would have them clearly spelled out so we could repeat them.

 

[Thalassamania]

Hey guys, aren't we more than a little bit off topic here?

 

[SeaYoda]

He asked - I'm just answering .

 

[MikeFerrara]

well... i guess what i am hearing from you is that when Jesus said there will still be some of his listeners alive when he came back in the glory of the Father and the angels to give to each their due, he didn't mean that?

No. That's not at all what I am saying. I'm saying that he never said that in the first place. You keep inserting your own paraphrasing in place of what Jesus did say. I think I already explained as well as I could what I think he said in Matthew 16. He promissed that some of the deciples would see the Kingdom of God and they did see it in the tranfiguration. Matthew 24, is a different story and we haven't discussed that at all.

and when he said to a possible follower, sell all you have and give it to the poor, and then come, follow me, he didn't mean that either?

I didn't say that either. He clearly did tell that man to sell what he had and give it to the poor. That man asked in Mark 10:17 "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life"? Jesus answerd and told him what he needed to do. Why was that the right answer for that specific man? Because his heart was where his wealth was and Jesus knew that. I think Jesus meant just exactly what he said but he did NOT say that everyone has to get rid of everything they have in order to gain eternal life even though those seem to be what you think he said...see the other verses that I already quoted above.

seems like the difficult things he said, he didn't mean... but ok, fine enough.
if you're happy with your answers to those issues, that's all that counts.
i simply wasn't happy with those answers.

I don't agree with that at all. As I already stated I believe he meant exactly what he said. He just didn't mean everything that people accuse him of saying.

here's one last question. what were Jesus's finals words?

Matt.27:46,50: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ... Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

[the Gospel of Mark also has "Eli, eli..." as Jesus's last words]

Luke23:46: And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

I don't think I have a good answer for you right now. I'll try though.

In the mean time, of all the questions that one could ask concerning the contents of the Bible, why this question?

 

[Thalassamania]

No biggie, I was just enjoying what we'd been doing here, we've switched and I'm just expressing my petulance.<g>

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hey guys, aren't we more than a little bit off topic here?

Yes we are. Andy and I have been at this for a while now. I don't know if anyone else gets anything out of it but I'm thinking that we both must enjoy it.

For the record, it would be ok with me if some ambitious mod wanted to split off some of the off topic posts. I'd rather they not delete them all though...if I have a choice.

 

[SeaYoda]

No biggie, I was just enjoying what we'd been doing here, we've switched and I'm just expressing my petulance.<g>