Creation vs. Evolution

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Uncle Pug:
But if you won't bother to read my post or the information on the website I linked why should I slowdance down a rabbit trail with you?

i'd rather dance with my wife, thanks

:eyebrow:

so you were talking about all that pseudo-astronomy that maybe something weird happened to Jupiter in the sky 2,000 years ago, and that's proof that God exists?

you're easily convinced, and appear not to know the difference between science and creative writing

Soggy:
My opinion is that it was either an as-of-yet unknown astronomical event or it just never happened and was a story, like so many others in the bible, fabricated from thin air (Noah)...or at best "Based on" a true story.

let's not forget that only Matthew (of all four Gospels) mentions the star business
and there is no indepenent corroboration of any celestial hanky-panky from any other contemporary source, including known Christian writings

let's chew our cud on that

another tidbit: the only WORDS (words) that the Gospel's nativity accounts have in common are Bethlehem, Judea, and Mary.

chew on that some mo'
 
First give me a couple of disinterested reference to the idea that something happened in the sky 2000 years, or so, ago and then we have a stating point.
 
There are lots of things in the world I don't understand, but I don't go making up omniscient beings to compensate for my lack of understanding.
That's really not the reason people seek God; explaining something they just don't understand. That would be like defensively hiding behind a blanket, fearful that it could one day collapse; true christians are far from this. In fact, the entire Bible, and other belief systems that were mentioned in this thread, don't cover creation beyond a "genesis" stage - none were really science oriented text books, nor we're they meant to be. So to hold one book, let's say the bible, in question because it doesn't explain the Pythagorean Theorum, would denote it across all religions, which wasn't noted in the posts. The challenge was then against the belief system. The roots of this has to be more than just science oriented, since the book isn't defined as a science "text book"; understanding the root cause of "distaste" should be the first step.

So the Hitler Channel got it wrong. Earth=4.4, Universe=14+
What scientists look for are specific types of rocks that they believe exist in the universe in a "given form" (type and mineral content - primordial minerals), that would predate the "origin" of the earth (since these elements would have to come together to make the earth and other planets). Postulating that since the universe seems to be expanding, all matter had to have originated from a central point, and some force had to exist to force everything outward (an object in motion..., if it contracts, it would be gravity, based on their limited understanding of creation [everything, not just our small universe] as a whole).

The idea that the "rules" of time and space didn't yet exist, goes back to Einstein and other theoretical physcists ... time and space based on the form and function of matter at it's most basic level (an intertwined behavior of all things based the very nature of atoms and their relationship to each other) - ie., slow down matter, you slow down time, since all decay is based on the action (movement) of matter (or atoms), whether by losing atomic mass, or exchanging it for use in forming other compounds, or from simple reaction; slow down matter, aging slows. Since the universe wasn't in existance yet (in physical form), time must not have existed, since it was completely dependant on the final form of matter itself - space had to, since matter occupied it. Which leaves us with only one part of a relative equation.

The problem with that, is that science teaches us that all things have a repeating "shape" and "form" (in an abstract term, ie.,. logically all things follow this path because they must), and that nothing in and of itself, is self creating, only reactive. Therefore, matter from the big bang, would still have to follow a given pattern, previously defined by something - otherwise it would be nothing. So, time and space would still have existed, and all new matter merely fell back into that "form", taking time for everything to finally find it's own balance (which will continue until time itself finds it's end) - we see it as that in it's current state.

-----

Mike.

Edted: Added a few additional notes.
 
Midnight Star:
The problem with that, is that science teaches us that all things have a repeating "shape" and "form" (in an abstract term, ie.,. logically all things follow this path because they must), and that nothing in and of itself, is self creating, only reactive. Therefore, matter from the big bang, would still have to follow a given pattern, previously defined by something - otherwise it would be nothing. So, time and space would still have existed, and all new matter merely fell back into that "form", taking time for everything to finally find it's own balance (which will continue until time itself finds it's end) - we see it as that in it's current state.

From this I got "Midnight Star believes he understands Relativity, Quantum Electrodynamics, and Astrophysics better than Hawkings, Einstein, Feinman, and every other physicist out there."

We don't know what happened 'before' the big bang, but time and space did not exist prior to it. Time and space without the universe is a contradiction...you cannot have time or space without the universe.

Perhaps previous incarnations of the universe, if they existed, were closed and thus recollapsed upon themselves and something triggered the singularity to reexpand, thus resulting in our current universe. The previous universe could have had completely different laws governing it. We don't know and we never will.
 
Uncle Pug:
Why answer if you haven't bothered to listen to the question?

you know, the more of that article i read, the more i say to myself "claptrap"

Pug, say you want to follow a star or a planet from New York to Chicago...

how exactly can a star or planet show you the way? it will rotate in the sky like all other stars and planets, because it's the Earth that is rotating with you on it

so... every day, you get a glimpse of this star or planet for a few hours ... ok... so... how exactly do you "follow" it? it will not "hang" over any spot in the sky. it will appear to rotate and then dip below the horizon or vanish at dawn.

(the one exception, of course, is the North Star, which remains fixed at night)

and then say you are told that the Messiah has been born in a small village... you go there ... and .... well... it's a small village, and the sky is still rotating...

and then, for argument's sake, let's assume the star or planet stops WAY UP IN THE SKY (where stars and planets belong)... how could you tell it had stopped OVER any particular builiding? (Matthew 2:9 -- "...and lo, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came to rest over the place where the child was.")

it's impossible, Pug... can't happen

it's a lovely myth, i'll grant you that, but no more
 
From this I got "Midnight Star believes he understands Relativity, Quantum Electrodynamics, and Astrophysics better than Hawkings, Einstein, Feinman, and every other physicist out there."
Perhaps, only God himself really knows. Aside from that though, in reguards to the nature of the postings, and your reference to me, that's a really interesting thing to say. Very intesting indeed. :)

-----

Mike.
 
Soggy:
but time and space did not exist prior to it. Time and space without the universe is a contradiction...you cannot have time or space without the universe.

.

Can you define "time" please?
 
that's a good source

basically, space-time is one entity

there is no space without time, nor time without space (except perhaps in a singularity?)

think of it this way:

if all energy is contained in a infinitely small space, there is no "lag" and everything is instantaneous

if you expand the space, then it takes "some" lag for a particle to travel from point A to point B

that "lag" is time

time is a co-efficient of space ... but space can't exist without time

clear as mud?

:wink:
 
Soggy:


"Two distinct views exist on the meaning of time".
This was the first sentence in your link regarding "time"...not spacetime. Not real definitive. I asked the question because I read an article (Nat Geo I believe) a few years back that said exactly that, "define time". The purpose of the article was to show how difficult it is. My question was then, since it's so hard to define, how can we be sure if it even existed or not?
 
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