Creation vs. Evolution

[Hank49]

however, we can know a number of things: how old the earth is, how old the universe is, we know all this stuff. there is ample proof for it.

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Begging your pardon here, deerhunter, but although we may have estimates to the age of Earth, we have no idea how old the universe is. Well, unless you have a definition of "universe" that you're referring to. In fact, we cannot even comprehend the universe. Those that say they do....well, I don't see how. If it was formed by big bangs or created, when? And what was there before that? And when will it end? Where does it end? How can you possibly say we know how old it is?

 

[Soggy]

Begging your pardon here, deerhunter, but although we may have estimates to the age of Earth, we have no idea how old the universe is.

Sorry, you are wrong. It's about 13 billion years old, give or take. We know this because we can measure the expansion rate of the universe.

If it was formed by big bangs or created, when?

Big bangs!? No. One single big bang. In fact, it's called a singularity.

And what was there before that?

Absolutely nothing. Not absolutely nothing like "infinite empty space." I mean absolute nothingness. No time, no space, no nothin'. Nothing existed.

And when will it end?

Never. We live in an open universe. The expansion rate of the universe is sufficient to overcome the gravity of its mass and it will continually expand for eternity.

Where does it end?

It doesn't 'end'. You are thinking 3 dimensionally. If you were to go all the way to the 'edge' of the universe, you'd eventually end up back where you started because space and time are curved. The universe isn't a 3 dimensional space. It doesn't HAVE an end. There are no borders. It's not like you'd reach an end to all the stuff in the universe and have infinite empty space beyond it. It just doesn't work like that. The universe is curved in upon itself.

How can you possibly say we know how old it is?

Read up on the big bang theory, specifically cosmic microwave radiation and the Hubble constant. While not current, Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" is a good book to read to start getting your mind around the weirdness that is our universe.

Not to say that the age of the universe 'easy' to calculate, but it has been done. The exact number is constantly being narrowed in on, but it is in the low teens of billions of years.

Seriously, don't start spouting off if you have *no idea* about the theory you are arguing about. At least go to wikipedia and do a search before you start making assumptions.

 

[Hank49]

No. One single big bang.




Absolutely nothing. Not absolutely nothing like "infinite empty space." I mean absolute nothingness. No time, no space, no nothin'. Nothing existed.



Seriously, don't start spouting off if you have *no idea* about the theory you are arguing about. At least go to wikipedia and do a search before you start making assumptions.

So, there was nothing.....and then there was this big band, and all the elements that form the universe were created, or appeared.....out of nothing?

In this case, if there was nothing, it was empty space, which IS something. And since it is infinite (I do kind of understand it....believe it or not) how can we even speculate as to what's out there? It amazes me that anyone can be as sure as you seem to be about this.
The whole concept of "when" demonstrates how limited we are. That's all we know, because everything in our lives begins and ends. Why did the universe have to "begin"?

 

[Soggy]

So, there was nothing.....and then there was this big band, and all the elements that form the universe were created, or appeared.....out of nothing?

Roughly...you need to do some reading. Mostly, after the subatomic particles formed, it was hydrogen (like 98%) with only a few other elements. Most elements were formed from fusion of hydrogen within the stars.

In this case, if there was nothing, it was empty space, which IS something.

No, there was nothing. Not even empty space. That's the tough thing to get your brain around. Empty space is part of the universe. Without the universe, there is no empty space. The big bang did not create just the *stuff* in the universe, it created the space that the stuff is contained within, too.

And since it is infinite (I do kind of understand it....believe it or not) how can we even speculate as to what's out there?

No, the universe is not infinite. It is finite. It has a finite mass. This is a common misconception.

Why did the universe have to "begin"?

No one knows that. That, along with "what caused the big bang" is the only place I see in the world for a deity, but I expect that there is a scientific explanation that we have yet to find...or perhaps we never will. But this type of god is quite different than what is described in Christian mythology.

 

[Cacia]

wow, Soggy, you sound pretty sure.

 

[Kim]

wow, Soggy, you sound pretty sure.

Not any surer than most of the people who believe in the Bible it seems to me! (which seems to have a lot less observable 'evidence' to support the theory!)

 

[Soggy]

wow, Soggy, you sound pretty sure.

I'm sure lamont will chime in at some point and explain it better than I ever could. I'm just an armchair physics guy.

But, why shouldn't I be sure? There are people out there testing this stuff, writing about it, having it reviewed, ad nauseum.

 

[Soggy]

Here's the thing about the birth of the universe...

People conceptualize it like this:
There was a big infinite void with a little tiny dot in the middle. At some point in time, that little dot went boom and expanded within that space into the universe we know today.

To clarify, the preceeding paragraph is incorrect.

But the reality is, without the universe, there is no time. The existence of time is conditional upon the existence of the universe. There wasn't a time before the universe existed because before it existed, there was no time. There was no space for the universe to expand into. The universe is everything...it is...'the universe'. Make sense? Probably not, but that's the best that I can explain it.

When you begin to accept that, you start seeing less and less place for a creator.

 

[Hank49]

Roughly...you need to do some reading.

No, there was nothing. Not even empty space. That's the tough thing to get your brain around. Empty space is part of the universe. Without the universe, there is no empty space. The big bang did not create just the *stuff* in the universe, it created the space that the stuff is contained within, too.



No, the universe is not infinite. It is finite. It has a finite mass. This is a common misconception.



No one knows that. That, along with "what caused the big bang" is the only place I see in the world for a deity, but I expect that there is a scientific explanation that we have yet to find...or perhaps we never will. But this type of god is quite different that what is described in Christian mythology.

Soggy, you've obviously read more than I on what the latest agreement among scientists is.
It's this "nothing" because even "nothing" is an empty space. When was THAT created? and what was before that? OK the scientists say it's so and I can't offer a better explanation. but again, it just demonstrates our limited mental capacity. How can you put a limit of 13 billion years on this universe....and not just the stars which we see. How can it be finite? It can't end because there would have to be something there. And if we end up back where we started, as you stated, what's beyond the limits of THIS universe?
Are you saying there was nothing 20 billion years.....or 300 trillion years ago? Absolutely nothing? I don't buy it. Tell me I don't read enough but I see men trying to put a "beginning" onto something because that's all we know. I agree that we'll keep learning and huge gains in knowledge have been made, but to say we "know".....uh uh.

 

[Soggy]

It's this "nothing" because even "nothing" is an empty space. When was THAT created? and what was before that?

When was what created? Nothing is nothing. You don't have to create nothing, since a thing called 'nothing' doesn't exist. 'Nothing' is not empty space. Nothing is nothing. It's like the opposite of infinite.

How can you put a limit of 13 billion years on this universe....and not just the stars which we see. How can it be finite? It can't end because there would have to be something there. And if we end up back where we started, as you stated, what's beyond the limits of THIS universe?

Hank, basically you don't know what you're talking about. You are letting your lack of understanding cloud your judgement. Like many others in this thread, you are trying to argue against something without a fundamental basis of understanding. Simply because *you* don't understand doesn't mean that there aren't those that do.

We know how old the universe is because we know how fast the universe is expanding. And everything is expanding away from everything else....all at the same rate. We know this because of the Doppler effect...you know, the effect you experience when a fire truck rushes by you. Everything appears shifted to the red end of the spectrum (this is the red shift people speak of). From this, we can infer how long it took it all to be in a clump, thus we can figure out the age. It's both more and less complicated than it seems.

Are you saying there was nothing 20 billion years.....or 300 trillion years ago? Absolutely nothing? I don't buy it. Tell me I don't read enough but I see men trying to put a "beginning" onto something because that's all we know. I agree that we'll keep learning and huge gains in knowledge have been made, but to say we "know".....uh uh.

There was no 300 trillion years ago. Time has only existed for 13 billion years. The concept of "before the universe existed" is nonsensical since "before" implies time and there is no time without the universe.

I don't know how to explain it. Buy "A Brief History of Time." It's a good book. It talks about all sorts of other stuff that's really tough to get your brain around, like particles that exist in extremely high gravity (like inside black holes) that have to be spun around 540 degrees or 720 degrees before they are back to where they started. Our universe is fricken weird, especially at super small and super large scales.

I hope lamont will get in here soon and fix all the mistakes that I'm sure I made and also explain things a bit better.