Creation vs. Evolution

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shakeybrainsurgeon:
In fact, the chimp may consider our pre-occupation with religion, art and cyberspace to be a dangerous, and stupid, waste of energy which will, end the end, drive us to extinction.

Chimps aren't a good example of your theory though because they're worse than humans at adaptation. They're the endangered ones now....at least FOR now...
But as to self awareness etc of animals....look at even cats and dogs. They just space out and stare off....they're doing some serious thinking. :D
 
Chimps are supremely adapted to their environment which is being rapidly detroyed by a plague that has taken over the world.

The major problem I have with humans being a successful species in the long term have to do with our arrogance in thinking that we can "think" our way out of any binds we might get into. Think about how many individuals are actually procuring food vs. reproducing. There are too many of us on the planet and to make room we're destroying that which allows us to succeed.

This way of thinking also allows us to do things like justify hunting because the deer are overpopulating. Well, lots of species of less tasty things can overpopulate too, we just let nature balance the whole thing out. We're not happy with letting a natural course (natural selection?) regulate human populations.

R

P.S. I'm not opposed to hunting, just call it what it is... "I'd like to go shoot a deer because I like venison." Stop pretending to be altruistic about the whole thing.
 
Kim:
That is exactly my problem too. I have to wonder even more about it when I see many of these 'super-intelligent' beings taking as literal truth stuff that was written down thousands of years ago. That's not just the Bible - it applies to other religious texts as well. It seems obvious to me that at the very least these texts were written for their own times, and with the inherent drawbacks of lack of certain knowledge. An example I used earlier was the flat world. The Christian church believed fully that the world was flat and everything revolved around us - after all...that's what it seemed to say in the Bible right? In fact it was actually a heresy to believe otherwise in the beginning and before there was incontrovertible proof that it wasn't true.
I don't recall anything in the Bible that says that the world is flat. In fact, The Bible seems to teach a spherical shape for the earth. Look at Luke 17:34–36 for example.

In either case the Bible is not an astronomy text. I would also be careful about using policies of the Roman church as an indication of what the Bible actually says. Similarly, I'd caution against excepting the arguement of the "skeptics" without further study because they are notorious for taking small sections of Biblical text out of context, placing it in their own context and using it to make points completely unrelated to any intended point of the Bible. While many of the arguements seem sound on their own, in most cases, a simple reading of the text in context renders the arguements absolutely laughable. When these arguements are presented to one who has actually studied the text in context, they are just raming both feet so far into their mouth that it would take one really gifted surgeon to remove them.
Similarly is it only me who finds it odd that according to the Old Testament the Jewish people are the 'chosen' people? Who wrote the Old Testament? Jewish people right? Doesn't this simply strike you as a rather biased claim rather obviously written by someone with a vested interest? If it does then might not other parts be similarly biased? If it doesn't.....I might have an old car you'd be interested in.

According to both the Old Tesament and the New Testament the Jews are the chosen people. Before assuming that this is due to some biase on the part of the Jews or some honor which they bestowed on themselves, one might spend some time considering what it means to be the chosen people.

God, chose one man, Abraham, from a rebellious wourld through whom he would build a nation. That nation would be the instrument through which he would impliment his salvation plan and would bless all the nations of the earth. The role of Isreal, has not proven an easy one.
Let's face it - if people were trying to get our kids to use school books that were hundreds of years (or more) old there'd be an uproar. Some things are as true as when they were first discovered...think Pythagoras, Archimedes...Isaac Newton etc. It doesn't mean that everything stopped with them though. I simply can't understand why Creationists would want to handicap their children in that way.

Gods word is one of those things that hasn't changed. Gods salvation plan from Adam through the events or Revelation is still in progress. In fact, events especially in the Middle east seem to be shaping up in a very interesting way, Biblically speaking. We don't need a new book, though take note, that even Christians consult other books for the purpose of studying other subjects.

I'm not actually "up on" what "creationists" are argueing for in regard to text book useage in schools. It's just not something I have a lot of time for but, personally, I haven't heard anyone suggest that all science books be replaced with the Bible. However, speaking of handicaping our children, I can't even fathom "people" handicaping their children by not teaching them Gods revelations to us. Though, I don't expect the public schools system to do it, to me, that is the monster of all possible holes that could exist in education.

It's interesting that you mention Isaac Newton. Are you aware of Newtons views on God and the Bible? I've just started reading some of his writings concerning the Bible and his Biblical interpretations but he seems to have spent as much time on Biblical studies as he did on science and mathematics. Smart man huh?

The issue goes beyond creationisnm vs. evolution. The other day I caught part of an interview on the radio...I only caught part so I didn't catch who it was being interviewed...but he presented some interesting ideas. He proposed that secularism in itself had become a "world view". Rather than being a bias-fee view he was of the opinion that it constitutes a view that has it's own unique bias. I never thought of it quit that way but I tend to agree. I'm all for the basic idea of the seperation of church/religion and state but secularism has just about become a religion of sorts. I don't believe that to limit all political debate/consideration to purely secular arguemnents is accomplishing the intended goal of the seperation of state and religion. On the contrary, it appears to be a rather solid alliance between the state and one specific world view. A world view, that probably isn't even close to being representative of the majority.

It has some interesting implications in a government that is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people. Which people? While it may not be completely accurate to describe our nation as "Christian nation", our nation has traditionally maintained values that are, somewhat, in line with a Christian view. Incidentally, many religions share much of their "moral code". Interestingly, we are now seeing legeslation (and attempts at legeslation) that is contrary to the "moral codes" of almost all religions and only consistant with a purely secular view. How this view alligns with the "will of the people", I think, is repeatedly demonstrated in the the supreme court rulings that are clearly contrary to the way "the people" vote when given the chance. As time goes on and more and more of our "moral assumptions" are thrown out I would expect to see many more cases of this. Taken to it's extreme, we may be looking at the begining of what might be the next inquisition. That might seem an exaggeration, for now, but it isn't too far off from what a study of Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, ect reveal the Bible to predict. I'm kind of new to this study myself but the departure from God of society as a whole seems a necessary element of Biblical prophesy. One of many elements that we see playing out right before our eyes.

You want some scary evidence of Biblical truth? Study the Bible and watch the news.
 
mike:

i dispute your major premise that the Bible is an inspired book that contains God's truth

as a result, all conclusions based on that premise are flawed (in my opinion)

if you can offer me proof that God wrote the Bible, then I will reconsider my stance

but first you have to offer me proof that God exists at all. you must admit this can't be done.

thus, we have at least two huge evidence gaps to bridge here, and possibly several more:

1. that God exists

2. that God wrote the Bible

3. that what God wrote is what has come down to us intact

4. and that translating from the Hebrew and Greek hasn't altered God's meaning.

now, you are entitled to BELIEVE that is the case, but you certainly can't offer any proof thereof.
 
NetDoc:
[tongue in cheek]I think that the Banana proves the existence of God... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4472004596147265716 [/tongue in cheek]

Thanx for that - you just made my rotten morning a little brighter! I checked the banana in my lunch. It appears to be defective - not only does it have too many sides, but the "tab" broke off without "opening the non-slip, biodegradable wrapper".

:banana:

Bryan
 
photohikedive:
this line of rational baffles me. the same person that uses this as an argument to prove there is a god, is the same person who will discount all the horrors that exist in the world. sure, man's mistreatment of man is one thing, free will and all. what about floods, earthquakes, birth defects and disease?

The subject of human suffering is by no means something that should be discounted in the consideration of Gods plan and works. While vocal skeptics accuse Christians of discounting human suffering, on the contrary, it's formost on the minds of many Christians who do suffer. A perspective on suffering is absolutely critical to the Christian faith, if for no other reason, because human suffering will touch every single one of us at some point. Some pages back I put a fair amount of work into some posts that attempted to address the subject. You might want to read them and pick this up again. If nothing else it would save me the work of repeating myself in order to respond to you. In short, and without the lengthy explanation that I offered earlier, the result of suffering tends to be learning, development and a drawing closer to God rather than a rejection of God. While suffering entered the world as a result of sin, we are told that God will use all things to His eventual good and He does.
another thing that gets me,

a bus crashes into a schoolyard, all on the bus dies, dozens of kids in the path of the bus dies, but one pane of glass on the bus is left intact with a stain the shape of Jesus, and people will claim it was a miracle.

Is this a hypothetical situation or something that actually happened?
 
i must agree. one of Christianity's teachings is that just because you are saved (one of the chosen) that doesn't mean you aren't going to suffer

quite an inevitable teaching, since that's what happens every day all around us

if Christianity were to teach otherwise, it wouldn't last a decade

what gets me is that you have an all-Powerful God who could in one instant cease all the suffering and hunger in the world. i mean, he is all-powerful, and yet he decides, every single second of every single hour of every single day, of every single week of every single month of every single year of every single decade of every single century for the past 6,000 years not to do it.

since he is all powerful he certainly can (or he wouldn't be all powerful), which means

he doesn't want to do it

wow... and this God wants me to worship him?
 
MikeFerrara:
II can't even fathom "people" handicaping their children by not teaching them Gods revelations to us. Though, I don't expect the public schools system to do it, to me, that is the monster of all possible holes that could exist in education.

<snip>

The issue goes beyond creationisnm vs. evolution. The other day I caught part of an interview on the radio...I only caught part so I didn't catch who it was being interviewed...but he presented some interesting ideas. He proposed that secularism in itself had become a "world view". Rather than being a bias-fee view he was of the opinion that it constitutes a view that has it's own unique bias. I never thought of it quit that way but I tend to agree. I'm all for the basic idea of the seperation of church/religion and state but secularism has just about become a religion of sorts. I don't believe that to limit all political debate/consideration to purely secular arguemnents is accomplishing the intended goal of the seperation of state and religion. On the contrary, it appears to be a rather solid alliance between the state and one specific world view. A world view, that probably isn't even close to being representative of the majority.

It has some interesting implications in a government that is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people. Which people? While it may not be completely accurate to describe our nation as "Christian nation", our nation has traditionally maintained values that are, somewhat, in line with a Christian view. Incidentally, many religions share much of their "moral code". Interestingly, we are now seeing legeslation (and attempts at legeslation) that is contrary to the "moral codes" of almost all religions and only consistant with a purely secular view. How this view alligns with the "will of the people", I think, is repeatedly demonstrated in the the supreme court rulings that are clearly contrary to the way "the people" vote when given the chance. As time goes on and more and more of our "moral assumptions" are thrown out I would expect to see many more cases of this. Taken to it's extreme, we may be looking at the begining of what might be the next inquisition. That might seem an exaggeration, for now, but it isn't too far off from what a study of Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, ect reveal the Bible to predict. I'm kind of new to this study myself but the departure from God of society as a whole seems a necessary element of Biblical prophesy. One of many elements that we see playing out right before our eyes.

You want some scary evidence of Biblical truth? Study the Bible and watch the news.

Everything in this post is taken from your own bias toward Christianity. Do you really believe that to take some lovely little Buddhist children and shove the Bible down their throat is doing them anything but a disservice? It's not handicapping them to not to. You're really touching the line on the kind of missionary work that has been rebelled against and resented all over the world.

What is wrong with letting people live a secular life? I don't give a rat's patootie what you worship at the end of the day but do I really have to "take a moment to praise Jesus" if I want to go see a football game?

I'd like to hear examples of laws that are being passed that violate the traditions of "most major religions."

R
 
MikeFerrara:
I don't recall anything in the Bible that says that the world is flat.
It suggests that humanity is the 'centre' of creation ....and the high point. I find that arrogant in the extreme.
MikeFerrara:
You want some scary evidence of Biblical truth? Study the Bible and watch the news.
With the political will of the most powerful nation on Earth hell bent on making it true I fully expect the news to reflect that...which it does. I also fully believe that this amount of corrupt power has every capability of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. I see it as a tragedy not the coming of the 'Kingdom of Heaven'.

To me it's very simple. Any relationship with reality needs living proof. It's the way Life made me. At best books such as the Bible can only be intended to be instruction manuals. The results have nothing to do with words IMO...but life and the actual end results. The whole argument reminds me of the image of watching the shadows dancing on the wall without realising that I am the one who casts them.......and the Light comes from behind me.

That said, I fully believe that everyone is, and should be, free to believe for themselves what they want. After all....that's 'free will' right? The issues only start to arise when people try to impose their own beliefs on others....by force....by implicit threat...by coercion etc...
In the case of trying to do this to children in school it's completely reprehensible IMO. You may talk about sunsets, beauty, feelings etc etc as you will but that will never compare to the stark reality of the fossil/geological record confirmed by carbon dating and laid out in front of my eyes by Life itself....not some human intermediary claiming to represent it. To me one is a matter of fact while the other is a matter of faith - much the same as the 'flat world' argument was in it's own day.......
 
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