Creation vs. Evolution

[wreckchick]

One test researchers have used to test self-awareness is to take chimps and splotch them on the forehead with paint. When presented with a mirror they go directly to their head to touch and look in the mirror to see what's up. Lesser primates just try to attack the mirror. They can't relate what they're seeing to the body they possess.

The problem I have is that we seem to think all our innate super-intelligence makes us superior to the rest of the animal kingdom and frankly, I'm not at all convinced of that.

R

 

[Kim]

The problem I have is that we seem to think all our innate super-intelligence makes us superior to the rest of the animal kingdom and frankly, I'm not at all convinced of that.

That is exactly my problem too. I have to wonder even more about it when I see many of these 'super-intelligent' beings taking as literal truth stuff that was written down thousands of years ago. That's not just the Bible - it applies to other religious texts as well. It seems obvious to me that at the very least these texts were written for their own times, and with the inherent drawbacks of lack of certain knowledge. An example I used earlier was the flat world. The Christian church believed fully that the world was flat and everything revolved around us - after all...that's what it seemed to say in the Bible right? In fact it was actually a heresy to believe otherwise in the beginning and before there was incontrovertible proof that it wasn't true. Similarly is it only me who finds it odd that according to the Old Testament the Jewish people are the 'chosen' people? Who wrote the Old Testament? Jewish people right? Doesn't this simply strike you as a rather biased claim rather obviously written by someone with a vested interest? If it does then might not other parts be similarly biased? If it doesn't.....I might have an old car you'd be interested in.

Let's face it - if people were trying to get our kids to use school books that were hundreds of years (or more) old there'd be an uproar. Some things are as true as when they were first discovered...think Pythagoras, Archimedes...Isaac Newton etc. It doesn't mean that everything stopped with them though. I simply can't understand why Creationists would want to handicap their children in that way.

 

[photohikedive]

Show me evidence of animal self awareness. If all traits are a product of some evolutionary process, why among all animal species have humans developed the ability to use higher reason?

this is something I have thought about. I think it has to do with our way of hunting. while most animals attack on instinct, man seems to be the only one to plan. in order to do that, he has to be able to imagine what MIGHT happen. as this skill developed, it gave him the ability to think in more abstract ways.

 

[photohikedive]

What use is "art" and "literature"...not a great number of emus or ptarmigan producing symphonies or mathematical proofs.

honestly, there isn't many humans doing it either

 

[Kim]

this is something I have thought about. I think it has to do with our way of hunting. while most animals attack on instinct, man seems to be the only one to plan. in order to do that, he has to be able to imagine what MIGHT happen. as this skill developed, it gave him the ability to think in more abstract ways.

Not quite true...at least chimps do it as well. They actually conduct 'warfare' on other groups...i.e. planned and premeditated attacks.

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

So given millions of years of evolution, why are they still fishing for termites with sticks while we are conversing in cyberspace?

How do we know that conversing in cyberspace takes all that much more intelligence? Most of the information processing of living things takes place at the cellular level and the level of multicellular organization. If we could quantify the cybernetic power of biological organisms, we might find that the human organism is barely a fraction of a percent more "intelligent" than the chimp organism. Ask any AI reseacher --- programming a machine to pick up a stick and probe for termites takes massive computing power, not even taking into account the hardware/software needed for high-resolution stereoscopic color vision!

The very act of walking, with all of the myriad computations and feedback loops, takes up a large part of brain and spinal cord computing power and is another act that AI engineers have trouble duplicating. Now, consider the cellular informational power, the power to create an entire organism. In the final analysis, things like novels and the Internet pale in comparison.

Intelligence is a biological adaptation and, like other biological adaptations, is a survival tool. As such, the degree of intelligence is measured by the success of survival. Until we have been around as long as insects, we can't say our intelligence as a survival tool is superior to theirs. Insects adapt genetically, by crushing problems with huge numbers of offspring with generational times of months, not decades. Their thinking is darwinian, ours is neurological. We must carry around an adaptation machine (a brain) because our long-generational times and small number of off-spring makes us evolutionary dolts, slow to adapt. Again, different species "think" (solve problems) in different ways, not necessarily inferior ways. In fact, the chimp may consider our pre-occupation with religion, art and cyberspace to be a dangerous, and stupid, waste of energy which will, end the end, drive us to extinction.

 

[Kim]

In fact, the chimp may consider our pre-occupation with religion, art and cyberspace to be a dangerous, and stupid, waste of energy which will, end the end, drive us to extinction.

More to the point....if they did, they might be right!

 

[photohikedive]

Not quite true...at least chimps do it as well. They actually conduct 'warfare' on other groups...i.e. planned and premeditated attacks.

you are correct, I had meant to say one of the only. Canines hunt in packs, and show some sort of ability to work together, which would suggest they were aware of where they are compared to thier pack mates. Strangely enough, dogs also dream.

Dolphins too hunt with amazing coordination, and seem to have a developed form of communication. I do not have a pet dolphin, so I can't say for sure if they dream.

 

[gregorio]

With such good explanations and demonstration from the evolutionnist side, i really wonder how creationnist are still not convinced? Maybe evolution does not affect them and there brain is not developed enough?

 

[photohikedive]

Maybe evolution does not affect them and there brain is not developed enough?

psssssssst, I think you meant, their

lets all keep this polite :mooner: