adurso
Contributor
Burnt goat appeals to everyone, deities as well; how could the smell of burnt goat, human hearts, oxen, etc not fail to stir filial pious feelings within you, tsk tsk tsk
Creation vs. Evolution
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A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.H2Andy:
Too often theists, atheists and agnostics miss the point of faith: it's an action of hope. I have faith in my car brakes. I expect them to work every time I depress the brake pedal. In other words, my faith has some justification.
Most people equate faith with a "blind faith": one that has no justifications. Expecting Andy to use a cave reel and not birdnest it would be a blind faith. Not only do we not have any evidence that he possesses this skill, but we have LOTS of evidence to the contrary.
Then we have issues with our interpretations of the evidence at hand. Since we have seen and heard about Andy's proclivity to birdnest the alleged cave reel, we must deduce if this is a one time /unique event (hardly!) or if it is indeed as habitual an occurance as the sun rising in the east.
H2Andy
Contributor
NetDoc:
alas, from previous experience, i know that when i press the brake pedal, it will slow me down.
i also know that it may fail, and thus i need to have maintenance, test the breaks at slow speeds, etc...
that's not faith, Pete. that's previous experience leading you to form reasonable expectations of the future
never having talked to God in person, i really can't say what the chap is like at all, or even if he exists...
that's faith: with no material basis for it, i base my future behavior on a belief and only on a belief
(also, yes, i tangle my reel. but it's all ScubaBoard's fault)
lamont
Contributor
NetDoc:
I'm not positive that I agree with your logic, but I love your example... =)
H2Andy
Contributor
yeah well that's hearsay
coach_izzy
Contributor
What can I say folks, I finally got sucked into this vortex!
As to the original question, well, I think it's apples and oranges. Cannot compare them, they don't even belong in the same sentence. Evolution? Something very evidential and undeniable, and I don't know how it deteriorated into this "Man came from the Ape" nonsense. Creation? A way to try to explain the complex in a way that will be acceptable for a lot of people.
From my own experience, I believe in a Higher Power. I've spent many years studying the complexities and intearactions of the human body, and I still continue to do so. I've barely scratched the surface and there is still so much more to learn. However, whatever little I know tells me that there had to be a very superior intelligence to put it all together. The simplest actions that we perform and take for granted, are the results of the interactions of many complex structures. For instance, the very action of typing with the Keyboard started at the brain with an intention, that became an electric signal, that traveled to the appropriate neuron, that connected to a motor endplate, that caused the release of ACH which changed the electrical impulse into a biochemical stimulus, which caused the release of calcium ions that led to the contraction of the desired motor units. Needless to say that this was the simplest summary I could use as there's far more involved. I cannot attribute this perfectly sychronized work to chance or randomness.
Now, does my believing in a Higher Power mean that I attend church? NO! I do not attend any churches, nor read any scriptures for one simple reason: I do not support any form of Fanatical Organized Religion. What do I mean by Fanatical Organized Religion? Simple, Those who think that just because you do not follow their beliefs you're condemmed to eternal damnation, and feel it is their duty to remind you all the time, and even worse, try to save you.
Fanatical Organized Religion has been, in my opinion, the source of many ills of society, and the perfect aliby for many atrocities. All forms of Organized Religion rely on their own Books for structure. Such books are considered divine and the word of their Deity. What a lot fail to realize about those books, whether you call it The Bible, the Koran, The Torah, or whatever, were without exception, written by men, and modified to suit the particular beliefs of a particular religion. Thus, scriptures that are considered conflictory or contradictory, are omitted. Those books have been and still are being used for those in power, to remain in power, and for those following, to prevent them from free thinking.
Unfortunately, many get so deeply involved in the rightousness of their own beliefs, that they end up fanatics and start judging other people not by the virtues of their lives, but by what is only seen as virtuous in their own world. By that logic that ENTIRE world is doomed in the afterlife, thus, ALL non-christians will burn in hades, non-muslims will never find paradise, non-budhists will never get a chance at re-encarnation, and many other damnations. :shakehead
Do you believe in Creation? Good for you! Just don't go insulting those who refuse to do so and keep reminding them how they will burn in hell. Instead, focus your energy in improving your own life. Do you believe in Evolution? Good for you! Just don't go insulting those who refuse to do so calling them ignorant and morons. Instead, focus your energy in improving your own life. If we could all live, and let live, we would not have so many problems.
By the way, I do wear my mask on my forehead, and like AZZA said, Bah! let's go diving!
As to the original question, well, I think it's apples and oranges. Cannot compare them, they don't even belong in the same sentence. Evolution? Something very evidential and undeniable, and I don't know how it deteriorated into this "Man came from the Ape" nonsense. Creation? A way to try to explain the complex in a way that will be acceptable for a lot of people.
From my own experience, I believe in a Higher Power. I've spent many years studying the complexities and intearactions of the human body, and I still continue to do so. I've barely scratched the surface and there is still so much more to learn. However, whatever little I know tells me that there had to be a very superior intelligence to put it all together. The simplest actions that we perform and take for granted, are the results of the interactions of many complex structures. For instance, the very action of typing with the Keyboard started at the brain with an intention, that became an electric signal, that traveled to the appropriate neuron, that connected to a motor endplate, that caused the release of ACH which changed the electrical impulse into a biochemical stimulus, which caused the release of calcium ions that led to the contraction of the desired motor units. Needless to say that this was the simplest summary I could use as there's far more involved. I cannot attribute this perfectly sychronized work to chance or randomness.
Now, does my believing in a Higher Power mean that I attend church? NO! I do not attend any churches, nor read any scriptures for one simple reason: I do not support any form of Fanatical Organized Religion. What do I mean by Fanatical Organized Religion? Simple, Those who think that just because you do not follow their beliefs you're condemmed to eternal damnation, and feel it is their duty to remind you all the time, and even worse, try to save you.
Fanatical Organized Religion has been, in my opinion, the source of many ills of society, and the perfect aliby for many atrocities. All forms of Organized Religion rely on their own Books for structure. Such books are considered divine and the word of their Deity. What a lot fail to realize about those books, whether you call it The Bible, the Koran, The Torah, or whatever, were without exception, written by men, and modified to suit the particular beliefs of a particular religion. Thus, scriptures that are considered conflictory or contradictory, are omitted. Those books have been and still are being used for those in power, to remain in power, and for those following, to prevent them from free thinking.
Unfortunately, many get so deeply involved in the rightousness of their own beliefs, that they end up fanatics and start judging other people not by the virtues of their lives, but by what is only seen as virtuous in their own world. By that logic that ENTIRE world is doomed in the afterlife, thus, ALL non-christians will burn in hades, non-muslims will never find paradise, non-budhists will never get a chance at re-encarnation, and many other damnations. :shakehead
Do you believe in Creation? Good for you! Just don't go insulting those who refuse to do so and keep reminding them how they will burn in hell. Instead, focus your energy in improving your own life. Do you believe in Evolution? Good for you! Just don't go insulting those who refuse to do so calling them ignorant and morons. Instead, focus your energy in improving your own life. If we could all live, and let live, we would not have so many problems.
By the way, I do wear my mask on my forehead, and like AZZA said, Bah! let's go diving!
Let's face it: "faith" has a bum rap. Somehow, without ever trying to use a reel, Andy had faith that he could master it. Had he mastered the reel before in a previous lifetime, then we could clearly say that he had "proven" that he could do so, and so "faith" could be seen as mere fact gathering. But Andy had faith in himself that he could do this and the rest is now legend.
Back to our car brakes. How many of you REALLY understand the physics, design and operation of your brakes? If you said "yes" without even knowing the diameters of the various cylinders, the moment of inertia provided by the brake pedal as well as the composition of the brake fluid in question, you have only deluded yourself. You can add to this, the friction coefficient of the brake linings, tires and the heat transfer with the same and we are not even half way there.
So we have established some sort of causal relationship with pressing on the brake pedal and slowing the car down. Still, we have no reason to believe (as Andy has found out) that our FAITH is well placed. As the car responds to our actions, we learn to have more and more faith in them. I would contend that it is only when they FAIL that we fully comprehend (for at least a moment), just how much faith we have put in them. Unfortunately, often we blame the brakes for our own deficiency as we have demonstrated in our hapless friend, Andy. Expecting our brakes to operate outside of their design parameters is not only foolish, but also painful as well.
But make no mistake about it, we have faith that our brakes will operate as designed every time we depress the pedal or we would be finding an alternate means to slow down. We also have faith that light switches will illuminate a room. Without a modicum of faith, our lives would grind to a halt as our phobias took hold of our consciousness.
So it often is with God: atheists often expect him to have provided MORE evidence and to have clearly defined evolution for us. They also expect God's followers to be perfect in each and every way.
Theists often expect God to suspend the rules of nature and all logic to help them believe. They also expect God to wreak some kind of vengeance on the miscreants who have the audacity to not believe in him.
Agnostics have no clue. There is too much evidence that they don't understand, and they wonder why this God guy just can't spell it out with stars or something.
So each of these three have developed a "faith" or a system of belief based on their perception of how God SHOULD be and whether or not s/he lived up to those expectations.
Back to our car brakes. How many of you REALLY understand the physics, design and operation of your brakes? If you said "yes" without even knowing the diameters of the various cylinders, the moment of inertia provided by the brake pedal as well as the composition of the brake fluid in question, you have only deluded yourself. You can add to this, the friction coefficient of the brake linings, tires and the heat transfer with the same and we are not even half way there.
So we have established some sort of causal relationship with pressing on the brake pedal and slowing the car down. Still, we have no reason to believe (as Andy has found out) that our FAITH is well placed. As the car responds to our actions, we learn to have more and more faith in them. I would contend that it is only when they FAIL that we fully comprehend (for at least a moment), just how much faith we have put in them. Unfortunately, often we blame the brakes for our own deficiency as we have demonstrated in our hapless friend, Andy. Expecting our brakes to operate outside of their design parameters is not only foolish, but also painful as well.
But make no mistake about it, we have faith that our brakes will operate as designed every time we depress the pedal or we would be finding an alternate means to slow down. We also have faith that light switches will illuminate a room. Without a modicum of faith, our lives would grind to a halt as our phobias took hold of our consciousness.
So it often is with God: atheists often expect him to have provided MORE evidence and to have clearly defined evolution for us. They also expect God's followers to be perfect in each and every way.
Theists often expect God to suspend the rules of nature and all logic to help them believe. They also expect God to wreak some kind of vengeance on the miscreants who have the audacity to not believe in him.
Agnostics have no clue. There is too much evidence that they don't understand, and they wonder why this God guy just can't spell it out with stars or something.
So each of these three have developed a "faith" or a system of belief based on their perception of how God SHOULD be and whether or not s/he lived up to those expectations.
Soggy
Contributor
NetDoc,
You are using two different definitions for the word faith.
One is:
confidence or trust in a person or thing
That is the type of faith that we have in our brakes. Without this type of faith, people and society would be crippled, not knowing if the sky might fall today even though it didn't for the past 4 billion years.
The other is:
belief that is not based on proof
That is the type of faith one has in religion and god.
This is a common technique used by politicians to sway an audience or win a debate.
You are using two different definitions for the word faith.
One is:
confidence or trust in a person or thing
That is the type of faith that we have in our brakes. Without this type of faith, people and society would be crippled, not knowing if the sky might fall today even though it didn't for the past 4 billion years.
The other is:
belief that is not based on proof
That is the type of faith one has in religion and god.
This is a common technique used by politicians to sway an audience or win a debate.
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