Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

It doesn't - but it says slavery is OK. Old testament allows you to sell your kids into slavery, new testament allows slavery to continue...

Bryan

Be more specific about what you are referencing and we'll have a look.

 

[Soggy]

There is a whole study of right and wrong...it's called ethics. Through reason & logic, we can figure out what is right and wrong. The only thing that separates us from animals is that we have the ability to figure it out on our own. God is in no way required for that....I don't believe in god, yet I manage to live a moral life. Your theory is disproven. I know what is right and wrong and it has nothing to do with what is written in the bible. People knew right from wrong long before the old testament and many have directly violated (and continue to violate) the principles therein in its name.

Even if you believe god is required for there to be morality, that is not proof of his existence.

Heck, did it ever occur to anyone that there are no absolute moral truths and that we just live by common sets of rules in order to have a functioning society?

 

[Hank49]

moreover, modern Christians don't realize that for most of Christianity's existence, salvation was not a matter of doing right and not doing wrong, but a matter of being predestined to heaven or hell from birth. Even now, a good person who rejects Christ will go to hell, a bad person who accepts Christ with his last breath goes to heaven. If Hitler had made a deathbed confession, he was Catholic, the church acknowledges that he would go to heaven. A man who thinks of cheating on his wife and has a heart attack goes to hell. Anyone who disagrees with this doesn't understand Catholic dogma. And before protesting and saying you are not Catholic but some other type of Christian, keep in mind that for 16 centuries, catholicism was the keeper of Christian dogma. All modern Christians are either catholics or a gnat's eyelash away from catholicism. The whole mythology of Christ, his death and resurrection, the entire paradigm of Christianity was crafted by the catholic church.

And, come to think of it, what earthly sin merits "eternal torment" --- the whole hell thing is creepy. In the end, Christians do good because they are afraid of eternal torment. With hell hanging over their heads, they hardly have free will.

Good points. It is a bit scary to think that Hitler and many others could have confessed on their deathbeds and ended up in Heaven. But I can't imagine a God who would play by those rules. It's like a parent accepting any behavior from a child as long as he/she says she's sorry. Let's say Hitler DID confess and ask forgiveness and accepted Jesus as his savior.......I'd at least expect that God is making him smoke a turd or two in Purgatory.....for a thousand years or so.

 

[Soggy]

Even now, a good person who rejects Christ will go to hell, a bad person who accepts Christ with his last breath goes to heaven. If Hitler had made a deathbed confession, he was Catholic, the church acknowledges that he would go to heaven.

I believe there is a "last days" clause, but I can't find it in my quick searches. My understanding is that one cannot confess in their "last days" (imminent death) as a way of getting into heaven.

 

[MikeFerrara]

There is a whole study of right and wrong...it's called ethics. Through reason & logic, we can figure out what is right and wrong. The only thing that separates us from animals is that we have the ability to figure it out on our own. God is in no way required for that....I don't believe in god, yet I manage to live a moral life. Your theory is disproven. I know what is right and wrong and it has nothing to do with what is written in the bible. People knew right from wrong long before the old testament and many have directly violated (and continue to violate) the principles therein in its name.

Is "my theory" disproven or is it proven? Without any absolutes it's all a matter of opinion but I believe that to deny God is, in itself, contrary to His instructions and therefore immoral.

On the other hand, even though I believe in God, I do not believe that I have lived a moral (sin free) life.

This alone would make an interesting studdy. From my own casual observation, those who don't believe in God seem to be the most confident in their own goodness or morality. 1 John 1:8, 10 says "If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Even if you believe god is required for there to be morality, that is not proof of his existence.

I agree. I believe that our existance is proof of His existance.

I heard a cute story though I don't remember where...

Satan and some of his top demons were having a meeting for the purpose of determining how to more efficiently lure people away from God and into Hell. One demon speaks up and says, "I know! lets tell people that there is no God."

Satan replies "That will never work. All of creation declares the glory of God and not even the dumbest human would fall for it."

A second demon speaks up and says "I have it! Lets tell them that there is no Hell."

Satan again replies "That's no good. Even people are smart enough to know that there must be payment for sin. Anyone else?"

A third demon askes "What if we just tell them that there is no hurry?"

 

[H2Andy]

On the other hand, even though I believe in God, I do not believe that I have lived a moral (sin free) life.

moral is not the same as perfect (sin free)

no human being can be perfect.

but imperfect human beings can be moral, even if they make mistakes and fail to be so 100% of the time.

remember, Jesus said to the woman "Go and sin no more."

literally impossible, but it's the goal that matters.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Good points. It is a bit scary to think that Hitler and many others could have confessed on their deathbeds and ended up in Heaven. But I can't imagine a God who would play by those rules. It's like a parent accepting any behavior from a child as long as he/she says she's sorry. Let's say Hitler DID confess and ask forgiveness and accepted Jesus as his savior.......I'd at least expect that God is making him smoke a turd or two in Purgatory.....for a thousand years or so.

What makes one sin worse than another? God says don't do this or that. I do the "this" and you do the "that". Which one of us is in more trouble? Niether of us obeyed.

Jesus is the lamb of God, perfect, and provided perfect and complete payment for sin and fulfillment of the law. We can do niether. If his sacrifice is enough to pay for your sin, why not mine?

The Kicker lies in the "rebirth clause" LOL. Other than having to be done in life I'm not aware of any time requirements but read the references that I've provided and see if you really thin that you could intentionally lead an evil life and then cry uncle at the last minute and get off scott free.

 

[Soggy]

You can quote the bible to support your argument all you want, but you might as well be quoting "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" to those of us who believe it to be a work of fiction (or at best, "Inspired by a true story").

 

[MikeFerrara]

moral is not the same as perfect (sin free)

no human being can be perfect.

but imperfect human beings can be moral, even if they make mistakes and fail to be so 100% of the time.

remember, Jesus said to the woman "Go and sin no more."

literally impossible, but it's the goal that matters.

Sin is immoral. If we are not sin free, I don't think we are completely moral.

I think your logic is sound enough but I disagree with your theology. We do make mistakes and can never be 100% sin free. I can't anyway. The part you are leaving out is the rebirth in the Spirit, giving yourself to Christ and the works of the Holy Spirit.

We can get by with some mistakes but only when we belong to Christ because he made no mistakes. He and He alone, defeated death and sin and He represents us if we are His.

If one doesn't believe in God, the Son or the Holy Spirit, this is all moot. As I see it, if you believe in any of the above, the question you need to ask yourself is... Do you belong to Christ?

Maybe the question we need to ask about the women caught in adultery is, when she walked off, did she belong to Christ?

Our trying is dog dodo. What Jesus did on the cross is everything. Go home and write "Jesus on the cross" ten million times. LOL

 

[idocsteve]

There is no god. If I am wrong, let him strike me through the heart with a bolt of lightning as I type.