Could I be sued??

[scubapro50]

Speaking of liability...

Someone the other day suggested that I was setting myself up to be sued out of existence.

I lead a Tuesday Night Dive Group locally (with the help of my friend Tony). I started this group 'cause there is a definite lack of organized diving in this area. In the winter it's only about 5 or 6 of us, but in the warmer months we can run up to 20 or so.

I setup the web site (it's very basic), I determine the dive locations and post a calender and basically handle all the organization. There are no club rules or fees or meetings or anything. We just show up and dive.

We attract a lot of new divers and I seem to be the self appointed Mother Hen... doing the dive briefings, matching up buddies, checking equipment, switching out hoses or loaning out extra stuff. We do the occasional pool dive and work skills, and I always prepare a list of skills to practice, and organize the drills.

Someone suggested that I am setting myself up for a law suit, that if someone gets hurt I could be found liable. They said that I am the de-facto instructor without an instructor's license or qualifications, or insurance.

I am NOT qualified to instruct, and I don't! Hey, I'm no instructor, just trying' to meet and dive with other divers, so I started the group and it's working. I am happy to mentor people (in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king ).

I like the group and the good people I've met, and before the group I was doing a lot of solo diving, and so were a few others who are happy to have found each other.

Should I disband the group? Have everybody sign waivers? Just go right along our happy diving way?

{(Spam warning) To get a feel for the group, check out the link below.}

Nice looking web sight ... I would speak to a lawyer in your area about the liability you might have .... if nothing else you may need to have a "legal disclosure statement" about the websight and all activities that it promotes to protect yourself ....

 

[Kim]

Disclaimer - I have no idea about the legal system in the US except for what I read about and so the following is purely an outside opinion/perspective.

If it is really true what several people seem to be saying about this then I think that the US is in serious trouble. How can anyone there do any kind of voluntary work if you are possibly going to be held to a culpable position if something goes wrong?
Personally I think that these kind of unofficial clubs and peer mentoring are great - we have a very similar group here in Japan, do dives and trips together etc.
How far does liability extend in the US? We have all sorts of people on SB who post advice on any and everything everyday. Does that mean that they could also be sued? Maybe everyone needs to be a bit more careful before they advise others to buy a BP/W for instance - what happens if the person drowns first time out and the family comes back with - "These people told him to do it on SB" ?
It would seem to me that if Rick could be held liable for what he is doing, then the issues might be running far deeper than most people realize.
In a situation like this everyone better start getting their solo skills and personal redundancy up to speed - not to mention personal liability waivers that you make others sign up to before entering into any kind of personal relationship with anyone else.
I really don't know how people can live like this! :11:

 

[MB]

Think of it like this: if there's a problem, and if someone is looking for a person to blame, then where is your source of protection? Sounds like you are sitting way out there by yourself.

You are organizing activities; you are taking responsibility for planning UW events; you are organizing and loaning gear. You are also making decisions regarding sites, conditions, buddy teams, etc. You are doing things that suggest you are in a leadership role, and you don't have a lick of protection.

This is cool work, but if you enjoy and want to continue, at a minimum enroll in a DM program, learn about planning and organizing UW events, and get insurance. Even a Mom & Pop motel have more protection than you do right now, and they don't carry a nickel's worth of the risk that you have.

Sorry...

 

[StSomewhere]

If it is really true what several people seem to be saying about this then I think that the US is in serious trouble.

Despite some of our challenges and your (undoubtedly heartfelt) concerns, I think we'll be just fine thankyouverymuch.

 

[H2Andy]

this is not legal advice, just some general thoughts.

yes, someone can sue you (anytime for anything) over this. they can cause
you grief and cost you attorney's fees to defend (unless you have insurance)

however, they woudln't have much of a case unless you negligently breached
your duty of care to a fellow diver and he/she got hurt.

basically, before someone can sue you for negligence (i.e. personal injury) they
have to show that you owed them a duty of care and that you breached that
duty of care to their detriment.

by putting up the website and getting together with divers, all you are doing is
that: getting together with divers. your duty to them doesn't change. you're not an
instructor. you are not a DM. you are not charging them for anything. to fully
protect yourself, i would have a waiver form drafted (easy) and have anyone who
dives with you as part of this group sign it, releasing you of liability. just to be safe. however, this raises the issue of consideration... so make sure you talk to
an attorney in your state regarding the waiver.

in a less paranoid world, as you describe it, your liability doesn't change as a result of the website. but... better safe than sorry.

you'd be just as liable for anything you did wrong during a dive with these guys
with or without the website (or just not as liable -- if you have a valid waiver from
them)

in the real world, if you don't have any assets, you are highly unlikely to get sued
for personal injury. PI attorneys go after deep pockets, generally, or those with
insurance. if you have few or no assets, it'd be foolish for a PI lawyer to go
after you for damages (they're going to spend money in the case which they
can't recover even if they win... since you have no assets).

please, remember, this is not legal advice. for legal advice, consult an
attorney who knows negligence law in your state and is licensed to practice there.

 

[Sideband]

Hmm. I work with instructors in classes but am not an instructor, AI, or DM (yet)myself. After, and only after an instructor explains and demonstrates a skill can I help out. After that I can work one on one with a student (during the instructor supervised class) and have them repeat skills for me. I have walked many people through mask clearing and 'mouth only' breathing that were having trouble. The instructor had shown and explained the proper way of doing it. I just worked with them individually long enough for them to get comfortable doing it.
You are working with certified divers. They are "legally" certified to do everything you are doing with them completely on their own. If it was me, I might start using a sign in sheet at the dive site. On that sheet I would include the fact that you are not a certified instructor or DM and that as certified divers everyone is responsible for their own safety, including determining the safety of the diving conditions and their gear. I would NOT loan out equipment. That was one of the first things I was told by my instructor. Fins and the like may be ok but definitly not life support equipment. I'd also probably not modify their equipment unless certified to make repairs. You could make the tools available for those that wanted to use them but I would probably also avoid approving their work. I would point out anything that I saw that was wrong but steer clear of saying it is OK. If they make a mistake it is on them and not you.

Why do you assign dive buddies? I'd introduce everyone but let them pick their own buddies. If you know Bob doesn't have a buddy and Jim is looking for one then you could say, "I don't think Bob has a buddy. Have you met him yet?" Then let them get together. No need for you to say, "Jim and Bob will be buddies".

Anyway, not a lawyer either so take with the proverbial grain of salt. I like the idea of what you are doing and would hate to see it stop. I'd also hate to hear you got into trouble for your efforts though.

Joe

 

[Rick Inman]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Andy!

this is not legal advice, just some general thoughts....
in the real world, if you don't have any assets, you are highly unlikely to get sued
for personal injury. PI attorneys go after deep pockets, generally, or those with
insurance. if you have few or no assets, it'd be foolish for a PI lawyer to go
after you for damages (they're going to spend money in the case which they
can't recover even if they win... since you have no assets).

I knew there was a good reason to be broke.

 

[dannobee]

**waivers and disclaimers; have your attorney check the laws in your state**

Having said that:

Andy's correct. A key fact is that you are NOT charging anyone for anything related to the club (merely a get together of like minded individuals). Without "mutual benefit," that is, the member pays to get a newsletter or something similar, and it's a lot tougher to successfully sue. One case comes to mind where a car club was held liable at an event where somebody crashed and was injured. The key issue was that the car club charged membership fees.

Also, have the members sign a release of liability, just like Andy said. Between no fees AND a release of liability on file, you should be ok.

As for insurance, you'd probably be better off NOT getting a huge umbrella policy, as that is an open invitation to be sued for exactly the amount of the coverage if someone was to be injured (funny how it works like that, eh? NOT). Your homeowners insurance may cover you, too. (Check with your attorney and insurance agent).

Now, someone mentioned DM/Instructor's. In this case you could be held liable, even if you were not, at the time of the injury, acting as a DM or Instructor. If you are currently NOT one of those, it'd be safer to keep it that way. If you are, then you probably already know why your insurance is so high.

And loaning life support equipment? I don't know. If you don't rent it, but merely let someone borrow it, you might be ok, but I'd probably refrain from doing it, just to be safe. Certainly DO NOT accept compensation (i.e. money) for someone "borrowing" your stuff.

**check with a local licensed attorney just to be sure**

 

[KidK9]

I am currently a DM, and I would say that what you are doing is DM work. Due to my insurance coverage, I am only allowed to work with the shop that carries half my insurance....but if I was to do what you were doing, I would need additional coverage. You are def not being an instructor, but you should take the DM course, get the cert, and pick up the insurance IMO.

 

[Rick Inman]

Good stuff, guys!

No money changes hands. In fact, the LDS that I refer people to has tried to give me free air/nitrox cards for throwing them so much business, and I've turned it down (not 'cause I'm so altruistic, but for other reasons).

I will definitely do the waivers and get legal advise.