Copperhead Bite Me !!!

[Jared0425]

I think it’s Cresaptown. I had to look that up.

My family is from there. I was going to say Bel-Air, but CresAptown is closer to Dan's Rock. Beautiful country.

 

[Trilobite]

I've come across them on Dan's Rock near Creseptown.

Yes, they range pretty much all over Maryland. I wasn't suggesting they are rare--just infrequently encountered unless you are looking for them.

 

[PBcatfish]

My meandering mind went far afield on this thread. I found a Wikipedia site that detailed the fatal snake bites in the U.S. in the last half century. There aren't that many, less than a half dozen a year. Copperheads provide the most bites, but rattlesnakes are far more deadly, providing by far the most fatalities...

When I lived in AZ, we had about 15 different kinds of rattle snakes. The little greenish ones & the little blueish ones had the most active venom. If you got nailed by one of those, typically you had about 15 minutes to get the correct anti-venom or it was game over. The anti-venom needs to be kept refrigerated & is sparsely stocked throughout the state.

There, the stats were a little different. The most common bite victims were young white males that had been drinking. So, the local wisdom was that if you were going to hike in the wilderness, you should bring along some young white males & keep them liquored up. I opted for a small hand gun instead. The bag limit was 10 per year.

Right around this time of year, they come out of hibernation in the part of the state where I lived. This time of year, I might run into quite a few more than 10 in a single day if I hiked in certain areas where dens were likely to be. A few weeks later, they had dispersed for the season.

Striking range is generally not more than 2/3 of the body length. They CAN bite through heavy leather boots in some cases. They hit surprisingly hard when they strike.

 

[PBcatfish]

Some of you guys are something else to say you are a liar , you don't live there , you are a B.S. er . no copperheads in Florida Mid Peninsula and being no mistake with a big blow up picture and a squirming headless
snake inches from a large screen.

I for one am not going to call BS. I will comment that sometimes it is possible to misidentify a snake, which is why after getting bitten, I generally try to kill the snake & bring it to the hospital with me for more positive identification, so that I can improve my chances of getting the correct anti-venom.

BUT, that aside, there are no snake proof fences out there & critters go where they want to. Different species do move their range over time. Range & habitat records, describe a history of what has been observed in the past. The future is unwritten. We didn't used to have green iguanas in south Florida. I saw more than 20 today. Peacock Bass are not supposed to be where I live at this time, but a neighbor catches them daily in his little secret spot that is about 20 minutes from my house.

One thing to watch with copperheads, is that they often travel in pairs. If you see one in front of you, keep an eye on your flanks & what is behind you.

One other comment I will make, is that I have seen a few rattle snakes that have lost their rattles. If you see one of them, it is easy to assume that it is not a rattle snake.

 

[Trilobite]

Different species do move their range over time. Range & habitat records, describe a history of what has been observed in the past. The future is unwritten. We didn't used to have green iguanas in south Florida. I saw more than 20 today. Peacock Bass are not supposed to be where I live at this time, but a neighbor catches them daily in his little secret spot that is about 20 minutes from my house.

Green Iguanas and Peacock Bass are both non-native invasive species introduced to Florida in the last few decades through the pet trade. Copperhead is a native species; native species ranges do change occasionally but are much more stable than the ranges of recently introduced invasive species.

 

[PBcatfish]

... Copperhead is a native species; native species ranges do change occasionally but are much more stable than the ranges of recently introduced invasive species.

My apologies for only listing a pair of invasive species in my earlier post. In the case of the peacocks, they had been here in the past, then disappeared after a cool winter, then returned a few years later. I have also notice a large number of native species that have been on the move. I was rather disturbed a few years ago when a naturalist was bragging about how excited she was to learn that crocodiles were retaking range that they had not inhabited in several generations. I was less enthusiastic about it, since I had previously enjoyed kayaking in that area. White tail deer have re-inhabited their long ago range in downtown Detroit, much to my surprise. 6' long ocean sunfish are not supposed to be in the shallow waters off of Cape Cod, but a retaliative of mine caught one there. He had to get someone from Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute to identify it, because he had no idea what it was. Bears, native to NJ have wildly expanded their range in that state since hunting them was outlawed there. The coelacanth fish was long thought to be extinct, but they are now being sighted again. Not long ago, keys deer were mostly limited to Big Pine Key. Now, they are known to inhabit more than 20 different keys. Florida panthers had been mostly pushed back to the areas in & around Collier County. Recently, there have been sightings in Palm Beach County. I have caught a Hatchet Marlin & Bluefin Tuna less than 3 miles off the coast of SE Florida. Sailfish are regulated as a migratory species, because that is what they traditionally have been, but Palm Beach County now has a year-round population of them. Pelagic species such as wahoo, have been found inside the ICW. Bull sharks have made their way to Lake Okeechobee. These are just a few examples off the top of my head. Critters show up in places where they are "not supposed to be" all the time.

Snakes are pretty good at sneaking around & finding their way into new areas, especially when a food supply entices them. It's pretty easy for something that size to hitch a ride on a delivery truck that is parked in a rest area & move a few hundred miles in a single day. It is not at all unusual for a native species to move. That's why there are fences along the side of Gator Alley these days. Before the fences were there, the black top was loaded with them on sunny days after a cool snap.

 

[greeniguana]

My apologies for only listing a pair of invasive species in my earlier post. In the case of the peacocks, they had been here in the past, then disappeared after a cool winter, then returned a few years later. I have also notice a large number of native species that have been on the move. I was rather disturbed a few years ago when a naturalist was bragging about how excited she was to learn that crocodiles were retaking range that they had not inhabited in several generations. I was less enthusiastic about it, since I had previously enjoyed kayaking in that area. White tail deer have re-inhabited their long ago range in downtown Detroit, much to my surprise. 6' long ocean sunfish are not supposed to be in the shallow waters off of Cape Cod, but a retaliative of mine caught one there. He had to get someone from Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute to identify it, because he had no idea what it was. Bears, native to NJ have wildly expanded their range in that state since hunting them was outlawed there. The coelacanth fish was long thought to be extinct, but they are now being sighted again. Not long ago, keys deer were mostly limited to Big Pine Key. Now, they are known to inhabit more than 20 different keys. Florida panthers had been mostly pushed back to the areas in & around Collier County. Recently, there have been sightings in Palm Beach County. I have caught a Hatchet Marlin & Bluefin Tuna less than 3 miles off the coast of SE Florida. Sailfish are regulated as a migratory species, because that is what they traditionally have been, but Palm Beach County now has a year-round population of them. Pelagic species such as wahoo, have been found inside the ICW. Bull sharks have made their way to Lake Okeechobee. These are just a few examples off the top of my head. Critters show up in places where they are "not supposed to be" all the time.

Snakes are pretty good at sneaking around & finding their way into new areas, especially when a food supply entices them. It's pretty easy for something that size to hitch a ride on a delivery truck that is parked in a rest area & move a few hundred miles in a single day. It is not at all unusual for a native species to move. That's why there are fences along the side of Gator Alley these days. Before the fences were there, the black top was loaded with them on sunny days after a cool snap.

I've worked professionally as a biologist in FL for 25 years. Much of what is presented here is new to me. Snakes expanding their range via hitchhiking on trucks at rest stops, is... interesting.

I knew a guy who swore that manatees were not native to FL. He insisted that Henry Flagler drug them up from the Caribbean for the overseas highway workers to eat. Tall tales are hard to argue with. Manatee fossils be darned....

 

[agilis]

My apologies for only listing a pair of invasive species in my earlier post. In the case of the peacocks, they had been here in the past, then disappeared after a cool winter, then returned a few years later. I have also notice a large number of native species that have been on the move. I was rather disturbed a few years ago when a naturalist was bragging about how excited she was to learn that crocodiles were retaking range that they had not inhabited in several generations. I was less enthusiastic about it, since I had previously enjoyed kayaking in that area. White tail deer have re-inhabited their long ago range in downtown Detroit, much to my surprise. 6' long ocean sunfish are not supposed to be in the shallow waters off of Cape Cod, but a retaliative of mine caught one there. He had to get someone from Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute to identify it, because he had no idea what it was. Bears, native to NJ have wildly expanded their range in that state since hunting them was outlawed there. The coelacanth fish was long thought to be extinct, but they are now being sighted again. Not long ago, keys deer were mostly limited to Big Pine Key. Now, they are known to inhabit more than 20 different keys. Florida panthers had been mostly pushed back to the areas in & around Collier County. Recently, there have been sightings in Palm Beach County. I have caught a Hatchet Marlin & Bluefin Tuna less than 3 miles off the coast of SE Florida. Sailfish are regulated as a migratory species, because that is what they traditionally have been, but Palm Beach County now has a year-round population of them. Pelagic species such as wahoo, have been found inside the ICW. Bull sharks have made their way to Lake Okeechobee. These are just a few examples off the top of my head. Critters show up in places where they are "not supposed to be" all the time.

Snakes are pretty good at sneaking around & finding their way into new areas, especially when a food supply entices them. It's pretty easy for something that size to hitch a ride on a delivery truck that is parked in a rest area & move a few hundred miles in a single day. It is not at all unusual for a native species to move. That's why there are fences along the side of Gator Alley these days. Before the fences were there, the black top was loaded with them on sunny days after a cool snap.

There is a huge difference between native species reclaiming an original habitat which they occupied in the past, something that occurs frequently, and a native species expanding its normal territorial limits. The latter is very rare and generally happens only when climate or environmental changes occur over time. One of the methods for determining the identity of a species, especially herps, is the location in which it was found. They do not wander or expand their range.
There are no Copperheads in central Florida. If one is found there it's an escaped pet. Another thing: snakes do not travel in pairs. They are found together in areas that are most supportive of them. Copperheads do not travel very much at all, they tend to stick close to home. Reptiles have a limited home range within which they move around seasonally, hibernating in one spot, spending the moist spring close by in another, the dry summer in another adjacent area, always in a limited range. Remove every specimen in a limited area and that area will remain devoid of that species for decades.

This is not as true with fishes: In late summer I see lots of marine reef tropicals here in NJ. They all die in the fall when water temps plummet. They ride the Gulf Stream currents.

 

[PBcatfish]

There is a huge difference between native species reclaiming an original habitat which they occupied in the past, something that occurs frequently, and a native species expanding its normal territorial limits. The latter is very rare and generally happens only when climate or environmental changes occur over time.

Or man moves in, or hunting regs change, or something causes a change in the rodent population, or a natural predator is removed from the area, or somebody gets a pet mongoose, or, or, or... Lots of things push critters around. Here I speak from experience as a former hunter. There was a time when I paid very close attention to which critters hung out where & tried to understand when & why they would move.

One of the methods for determining the identity of a species, especially herps, is the location in which it was found. They do not wander or expand their range.

This is the first time I have ever encountered this assertion. If this is true, then it would lead me to question the accuracy of both recent IDs & and range estimates. When I brought a snake to a hospital after a bite, so that it could be identified in order to identify the proper anti-venom, I do not recall this being the case. I recall a careful examination of the snake being performed. I recall several people needing to concur on the ID before the particular anti-venom could be prescribed. Apparently, administering the wrong one causes a big problem.

...but perhaps in some areas, with naturally occurring boundaries of some sort that would prevent critter movement, your assertion may be true. In large areas of continuous terrain type, I would find your assertion to be counterintuitive. To use NJ as an example, if snakes were present in a small wooded area near Newark or Patterson, I would expect them to have limited ability to travel very far, In someplace like the pine barrens, it may be a different story.

There are no Copperheads in central Florida. If one is found there it's an escaped pet. Another thing: snakes do not travel in pairs.

I am not goign to stamp my feet & say "yes they are". That would be foolish, as you are likely correct, based on the available information. BUT, I am never certain that a particular snake (or other critter) does not exist in a particular location where the temperature does not prevent it from surviving. I don't know how you can be so certain. There is a first time for everything. Range estimates change over time. I agree that an escaped pet is always possible, although I don't know anyone who keeps a copper head as a pet.

While I tend to agree with you that snakes in general travel alone, my experience in the north east has painted a different picture for copper heads specifically. I have encountered them in pairs more often than not. I am not the only one to have noticed this. It is considered common knowledge in parts of PA & NJ. I have been told by some people that this is a fairly tail, but many believe it & it is consistent with what I have seen. Again, perhaps this is a regional behavior?

They are found together in areas that are most supportive of them. Copperheads do not travel very much at all, they tend to stick close to home. Reptiles have a limited home range within which they move around seasonally, hibernating in one spot, spending the moist spring close by in another, the dry summer in another adjacent area, always in a limited range. Remove every specimen in a limited area and that area will remain devoid of that species for decades.

I disagree that they do not show back up in a year or two after being cleared out. Again, this is from personal experience. My experience has shown that they will follow a food supply. If you clean out two of them one summer, and the food source remains, you may find a new pair in a few months, or the following year, or the year after that. If you get rid of the food supply, they will leave on their own. Sometimes the ones you got rid of will be replaced by a different species. Sometimes it will be the same species. Commonly the replacements are young snakes. I theorize that the parents may be not so far away & next year's brood will travel only until they find a place that provides proper habitat & food supply without established competition or a predator already present. By clearing out the established competition, you roll out the red carpet for the young ones. If you don't do that, then the young ones will have to move further to find their own little area & that constitutes an expansion of range for the species. Over the years, I've killed a lot of snakes, but only in a few specific areas where they were being problematic. Some of the areas were in the north east, some were out west. As a result, I have a fair amount of experience in a few limited areas. My experience is representative of those areas, but perhaps may not be representative of other areas. Regional differences do exist. As an example, I noticed that squirrels near the southern rim of the Grand Canyon jump in almost the same way that rabbits do. I have not seen any other squirrels move like that anywhere else.

This is not as true with fishes: In late summer I see lots of marine reef tropicals here in NJ. They all die in the fall when water temps plummet. They ride the Gulf Stream currents.

I'm curious which southern species you see up there. I'm curious what depths you find them at. I was unaware of this happening. I haven't done any real amount of off shore fishing in NJ. I don't know much about what goes on up there. I am interested to learn.

 

[PBcatfish]

I've worked professionally as a biologist in FL for 25 years. Much of what is presented here is new to me. Snakes expanding their range via hitchhiking on trucks at rest stops, is... interesting.

I knew a guy who swore that manatees were not native to FL. He insisted that Henry Flagler drug them up from the Caribbean for the overseas highway workers to eat. Tall tales are hard to argue with. Manatee fossils be darned....

If you would like details on specific examples I listed, please feel free to ask.
The hitching a ride on a truck example was a what if, rather than something I know to have happened, but the rest of them are solid examples. The hitching a ride on a truck example is something that inspectors at state border stations out west look for on a daily basis, for various species, which is why I consider it plausible.