Considering PADI master diver

[MikeFerrara]

Thal, you don't happen to have numbers like that for fishing from a dock do you?

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal, you don't happen to have numbers like that for fishing from a dock do you?

No, sorry. I can do the same sort of thing for Baseball and Auto Racing and you'll see that they're way less risky than diving is. This is the only real way to deal with diving numbers since there is no denominator. Take the safety values that the industry provide, and extrapolate what the population would have if it were to have the same risk level as another sport. As you see diving, despite all the bantha pou doo that is spread about is way more dangerous than things like football (and auto racing) that we see as rather risky undertakings.

 

[girldiverllc]

Ok, so maybe I missed it in this thread (there's certainly alot to plow through)...

What's the solution? If not PADI, then what specific certification agency, irregardless of the instructor teaching it...has standards high enough to teach divers to be perfect the first time that they hit the water?

And Mike, you mention that you'd like to clean up your local dive site from the "rototilling" so that ' "we" can dive there.' At what point does a new diver get to dive at that site and become a "we"? Where do they get the practice to be as good as someone with over 500 dives under their belt?

Unfortunately, I was a new diver once. I had buoyancy challenges. Probably "rototilled" through a site or two along the way. Thank God I wasn't restricted from any dive sites so that I could improve my skills...and thankfully, I hadn't found the Scuba Boards that would have dissuaded me from seeking more education from professionals in the industry. Really, it wasn't from me spending MORE unsupervised time underwater that made me a proficient diver, but rather, the critique and instruction from professionals that honed my skills. They "taught" me to dive.

So, I think that "statistics aside"...I'd like to hear the solution. What kind of training are we going to offer that will produce truly masterful divers at the conclusion of their open water class? And what is the financial obligation going to be from someone who wants to take an Open Water class? As an instructor, I have to justify my time. And if I'm going to spend 3 months of time, 2 -3 times per week, training a diver through an OW class on steroids...well, it's going to be costly.

And the solution to "poor training standards" is...?

 

[MikeFerrara]

No, sorry. I can do the same sort of thing for Baseball and Auto Racing and you'll see that they're way less risky than diving is. This is the only real way to deal with diving numbers since there is no denominator. Take the safety values that the industry provide, and extrapolate what the population would have if it were to have the same risk level as another sport. As you see diving, despite all the bantha pou doo that is spread about is way more dangerous than things like football (and auto racing) that we see as rather risky undertakings.

Diving more dangerous? Using the numbers the industry provides and the numbers you presented, diving seems to be a regular blood bath in comparison.

My first hint that the industry wasn't completely honest about the risks came when I was an instructor candidate and I saw the PADI claim that diving is about as dangerous as bowling. While we hear about diving fatalities all the time, I have never heard of a bowling fatality. Maybe a sprain, broken finger nail and possibly even the rare fall with a broken bone but never a fatality.

The industry not only downplays the risks but they appear to just flat out lie about it. While there is discussion about risk factors in magazines, by DAN and even some agency material, I have never seen the effectiveness of traing discussed in relation to accidents aside from here on the board. The industry seems to have placed their training above question and out of bounds, though, they claim credit for a large drop in accidents that I have never seen any evidence of beyond their word. DAN even identifies poor skills as a major cause but stops short of ever pointing out that divers are certified with poor skills. Divers don't need a period of inactivity for skills to degrade. They never had them in the first place. A fact that is observable to anyone who cares to open their eyes.

We see this here in Josh, other instructors and industry members. They are quick to try to point out that everything else we do is more dangerous than diving but just will not discuss dive training on it's own merits. Those of us who do question the effectiveness of training have often been called elitists, overbearing and all manor of other things by people who WILL NOT discuss dive training standards as they relate to observed diver skill. From experience, I know that many come by it honestly because it's what they were taught in their pro level training and they continue to believe that the agency knows best.

redrum, redrum

 

[SparticleBrane]

And Mike, you mention that you'd like to clean up your local dive site from the "rototilling" so that ' "we" can dive there.' At what point does a new diver get to dive at that site and become a "we"? Where do they get the practice to be as good as someone with over 500 dives under their belt?

Most people in the program I'm with don't rototill the bottom or bounce off of it on their first open water dives. They're far from perfect...but better than most. It can be done, with time and good instruction.

 

[String]

The issue BSAC state when compiling the UK accident reports is that nobody in fact knows (I) how many active divers there actually are and (ii) how many dives are actually conducted each year.

That means although they can give figures for NUMBERS of accidents/deaths its not great for calculating a risk as you dont know the total dives performed.

I suspect its similar in the USA where DAN compiles.

Until people can work out roughly how many dives are actually being done giving a statistical risk is nigh on impossible.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Ok, so maybe I missed it in this thread (there's certainly alot to plow through)...

What's the solution? If not PADI, then what specific certification agency, irregardless of the instructor teaching it...has standards high enough to teach divers to be perfect the first time that they hit the water?

I don't know of an agency that represents a solution. GUE teaches the skills but they certainly aren't accessible to everyone.

And Mike, you mention that you'd like to clean up your local dive site from the "rototilling" so that ' "we" can dive there.' At what point does a new diver get to dive at that site and become a "we"? Where do they get the practice to be as good as someone with over 500 dives under their belt?

When are they a "we"? Right from the start. the new divers suffer with this stuff way more than I do. I can go to deep water or even a cave and get away from it. they are forced to be right in the middle of it. I think there's a misconception here that I've spent a lot of time trying to straighten out over the years. It doesn't take 500 dives.

Our course included 15 hours in the pool and only about 10 hours in the classroom. I would have liked to have a little more but we did pretty good with the average student. With a change of skill sequence and emphisis and a little more information in class our divers were able to stay out of the bottom on their very first OW dive and it got better from there. As I keep trying to explain, it isn't about making it harder, it's about making it easier.

Unfortunately, I was a new diver once. I had buoyancy challenges. Probably "rototilled" through a site or two along the way. Thank God I wasn't restricted from any dive sites so that I could improve my skills...and thankfully, I hadn't found the Scuba Boards that would have dissuaded me from seeking more education from professionals in the industry. Really, it wasn't from me spending MORE unsupervised time underwater that made me a proficient diver, but rather, the critique and instruction from professionals that honed my skills. They "taught" me to dive.

I never said anything about restricting anything. I'm simply talking about teaching relevant skills that simply aren't taught in most classes and aren't required by most agencies. Just because it isn't usually done doesn't mean that it can't be done or that it's even hard to do. Many of the problems divers have are because of things they just aren't taught or things they are taught wrong.

So, I think that "statistics aside"...I'd like to hear the solution. What kind of training are we going to offer that will produce truly masterful divers at the conclusion of their open water class? And what is the financial obligation going to be from someone who wants to take an Open Water class? As an instructor, I have to justify my time. And if I'm going to spend 3 months of time, 2 -3 times per week, training a diver through an OW class on steroids...well, it's going to be costly.

And the solution to "poor training standards" is...?

first off, we're not tlaking about truely masterful. We're talking about basic skills that are used on each and every single dive. We're talking about basics.

Why do you assume that it must take months? What have you done to test that?

As far as cost, lets leave the fact that training is often used as a loss leader to sell equipment and therefor shortened as much as possible, for another time. My Advanced trimix course was half as long as the OW course I taught but cost me three times as much BEFORE gas and other expenses. that instructor made a ton more money than he would have teaching an OW class and did far less work and had far lower expenses...no pool time, he didn't provide equipment and so on.

And the solution to "poor training standards" is...? Good standards.

 

[Thalassamania]

Ok, so maybe I missed it in this thread (there's certainly alot to plow through)...

What's the solution? If not PADI, then what specific certification agency, irregardless of the instructor teaching it...has standards high enough to teach divers to be perfect the first time that they hit the water?

Standards be damned, there are enough of us here telling you that it can be done. The first step is for you, and others, to see the inadequacy of what your doing. Once enough of you do so the agencies will change and the standards will change, but the change has to start inside you. As long as you go along thinking that what you’re doing is the best that can be done there’s no hope.

And Mike, you mention that you'd like to clean up your local dive site from the "rototilling" so that ' "we" can dive there.' At what point does a new diver get to dive at that site and become a "we"? Where do they get the practice to be as good as someone with over 500 dives under their belt?

”We” are the divers who only rototill our gardens, and this includes every student I take into open water. That’s not braggadocio, that’s cold fact. I don’t pretend to be the world’s greatest instructor, I just pay attention to what other instructors do and I steal. No rototilling is easy if you stress it as a concept from the first lecture on. Heck, the students razz each other about it, you don’t have to.

Unfortunately, I was a new diver once. I had buoyancy challenges. Probably "rototilled" through a site or two along the way. Thank God I wasn't restricted from any dive sites so that I could improve my skills...and thankfully, I hadn't found the Scuba Boards that would have dissuaded me from seeking more education from professionals in the industry. Really, it wasn't from me spending MORE unsupervised time underwater that made me a proficient diver, but rather, the critique and instruction from professionals that honed my skills. They "taught" me to dive.

If they did not stress trim, buoyancy control and no rototilling from the get-go, well meaning as they may have been, they did you a disservice.

So, I think that "statistics aside"...I'd like to hear the solution. What kind of training are we going to offer that will produce truly masterful divers at the conclusion of their open water class?

Those of us who do it know it can be done. In fact it can likely be done with large changes in attitude but minor changes in the PADI sequence. Get rid of OW, all it “Intro to Diving” so that it’s clear the student is only being trained to dive under supervision. Stress buoyancy and trim. Tone down the names for the rest of the programs, perhaps AOW becomes “Beginner Open Water Diver” and once they’ve done PPD (make that class real), deep and rescue they can get an “Open Water” Card. Until they make the new Open Water level they dive under supervision, DM, AI or Inst. This will satisfy most of the one week of diving in warm water types and will result in enhancement of the DM position.

As an alternative you can do what I do, an all inclusive course.

And what is the financial obligation going to be from someone who wants to take an Open Water class? As an instructor, I have to justify my time. And if I'm going to spend 3 months of time, 2 -3 times per week, training a diver through an OW class on steroids...well, it's going to be costly.

When I'm not teaching friends, which is most of what I do, I charge $1,000 per student for training, a full set of gear (which I help them buy) and supplies are extra. Minimum of two (if I really feel like it), I prefer four. I will tailor my time to whatever the group wants, one evening a week will stretch the course out to about thee months, if you’ve really got your head in the game, two full weeks. Most privates that I do are actually done (student’s preference) on a two sessions of one week each schedule, somewhere warm (my travel and accommodations are extra). Students leave with roughly the equivalent of Rescue, O2 Administration, Diver First Aid, Altitude Diver, Fish ID, Coral Reef Conservation, Boat, Deep, Enriched Air Diver, Equipment Specialist, Multi-level Diver, Night Diver, Peak Performance Buoyancy, Search and Recovery Diver, Underwater Naturalist, Underwater Navigator, Decompression Diver, and Computer Diver. They have a fill set of skills and a full set of gear (which they’ve likely saved enough on to pay my fee) and enough experience to be confident to dive on their own. They are DIVERS!

And the solution to "poor training standards" is...?

Changing yoiur own head is the first step. All else will follow in time.

 

[ClayJar]

I'm simply talking about teaching relevant skills that simply aren't taught in most classes and aren't required by most agencies. Just because it isn't usually done doesn't mean that it can't be done or that it's even hard to do. Many of the problems divers have are because of things they just aren't taught or things they are taught wrong.

I would certainly concur. Almost everything I learned about proper trim and buoyancy I learned from ScubaBoard. In my OW class, trim was simply not taught, but if it's that easy to pick up from reading posts, it *can't* be that hard, can it?

I had the honor of helping one of my dive buddies with her weighting. In one weekend's dives, she went from 12 pounds overweighted and rototilling to "perfectly" weighted and in great trim. The difference in effort between the last of the four dives that weekend and the first was enlightening to her, and not only did it make diving feel "easier", but her air consumption measurably decreased.

Weighting, buoyancy, and trim. The concepts should be second-nature to any diver. Diver should be comfortable in the water because they know how to handle things, not because they're oblivious. (The former dive trusting their safety to themselves; the latter dive trusting their safety to statistics.)

 

[MikeFerrara]

girldiverllc,

I am willing to rewrite it, if I have to, or look for it but I have posted what we did different in our classes and how they evolved over time many times on this board. I'm sure that other instructors have other methods that I never thought of but I stoled the best that I could find along the way and they are on this site. You can also PM me or even get on the phone if you wish. I have ideas and opinions but no secrets and none of it is new.