Considering moving forward with cave training in February, advice?

[Lorenzoid]

Hey @jlcnuke we met at Kraken Springs once. I was practicing some skills in preparation for an Intro to Cave course.

I can appreciate you have little free time, but is being a once a year or twice a year “vacation cave diver” really a good idea, when you could probably manage a number of weekend trips to FL to keep your skills up? I loved the cenotes, too—just beautiful—but with FL being a mere 5 hr drive from Atlanta, I felt it made sense to do my initial training in FL with the idea of then doing weekend FL trips for the year or so after that, honing my skills until I feel ready to move on. Maybe it wouldn’t have mattered, but I believed it made more sense to train where was I was going to do most of my diving. It’s a lot of driving for little diving, but I believe diving frequently is important. I can drive down on a Friday evening, do 2 short Intro-level dives on Saturday, another dive on Sunday, and head back north in the afternoon. I’ll save the vacation week for Mexico.

 

[txaggie08]

So my cavern and intro class is scheduled for June with Marissa Eckert, so I'm speaking only as someone looking at training.

I'm on a similar number of dives, although I took a pretty good break in the middle of my career. I got back in heavily this summer, and made a concentrated push for doubles and sidemount( a genetic defect makes backmount doubles unnecessarily difficult for me, so I went straight to sidemount), and have a drysuit coming I will be in as much as possible. Doubles, back mount or sidemount, are not that egregiously more difficult to dive, but be aware it IS a lot of gear, and there is quite a bit to get used to. Inwould not want to show up to any tech class not comfortable in my configuration. Even pool time is worthwhile.

I'm a bit farther than you for caves, ginnie is about a 10hr drive from my door, but those caves are definitely more accessible than Mexico. I also have some issues travelling abroad indont get into.

I know 5 hrs sounds miserable, but it can be done as an overnight trip. I regularly make the drive from here to Austin (5 hrs), stay a night, and come home. Dont discount the accessibility of the north Florida systems in your training planning. I will probably do both classes in Florida, and take a refresher or guided dive should I choose to make the trek to mexico someday, simply because I know I will be there more.

Training wise I have no input.... I chose Marissa because of her skill and reputation, along with several conversations. These folks know far more than me. I would say though, you may want to get in to doubles NOW and start getting used to just the sheer extra volume of gear ifnyoure planning that soon. I'm fat, outing shape, and really glad I have 6 months to get ready for my own challenge.

Several instructors have also told me that PADI cavern is not accepted by some agencies. I DO NOT know if that's true, but something to factor in.

 

[jlcnuke]

Hey @jlcnuke we met at Kraken Springs once. I was practicing some skills in preparation for an Intro to Cave course.

I can appreciate you have little free time, but is being a once a year or twice a year “vacation cave diver” really a good idea, when you could probably manage a number of weekend trips to FL to keep your skills up? I loved the cenotes, too—just beautiful—but with FL being a mere 5 hr drive from Atlanta, I felt it made sense to do my initial training in FL with the idea of then doing weekend FL trips for the year or so after that, honing my skills until I feel ready to move on. Maybe it wouldn’t have mattered, but I believed it made more sense to train where was I was going to do most of my diving. It’s a lot of driving for little diving, but I believe diving frequently is important. I can drive down on a Friday evening, do 2 short Intro-level dives on Saturday, another dive on Sunday, and head back north in the afternoon. I’ll save the vacation week for Mexico.

I recall you there then, and if I could mimic your schedule with any frequency, I'd agree. But with 60 hour work weeks being my norm, helping my dad take care of my mom (bedridden, ventilator, feeding tube), being a single person having to take care of everything at my house plus most of the physical activities to take care of the house my parents are in, I'm lucky to get 2/3rds of one day a weekend (maybe) on a weekend at Kraken. The nice thing about diving, whether cavern, deco, shallow, quarry, wreck, solo, team, open ocean, warm, or cold, is that the basics all carry over. Proper buoyancy and trim is proper buoyancy and trim. Sure, modifying the configuration means modifying how you achieve that some, but a backkick or a frog kick or a modified flutter kick don't become new skills because I'm in a cavern vs a swimthrough in the Caribbean vs going through the bus at Kraken. Following a line from the deep platform at Kraken up doesn't need a new set of skills compared to following the line I used in Paradise down in Florida. Just because you're not in the environment, doesn't mean you can't utilize or practice most of the skills. A silt out at the bottom of Kraken is going to eliminate vis just fine. Planning gas usage for my deco classes or dives or solo dives doesn't need a different set of calculations than doing so for cavern diving.

To me, the skills being used/practiced are more important in most things than the environment. Acquiring those skills is still important, but I can't really see that it would be unsafe to do simple cave dives irregularly. Heck, they let me do cave dives in Mexico with nothing more than an OW cert and a guide (and let's not kid ourselves, a lot of the "Cenote tours" are really "trust me cave dives". I can't imagine that after getting the proper training I couldn't do such dives without paying for a guide (or with for a while, then without) and be doing so perfectly safely if I practice the skills in some manner (whether in a cave environment or not) on a fairly regular basis and avoid 'complex' caves. That's kinda my end goal right now. Maybe that's naive, and I'll look back and chastise myself for those thoughts, but that's how things look from my perspective right now.

At this point, I think I'll probably go get some training at some point on backmount doubles and some more experience in them so they're not "new" when I do get around to doing my intro to cave course eventually, which it seems some think I could do tomorrow and others think I need another year of diving in caverns in doubles before considering depending on who you ask lol.

Of course, this is diving, so I guess I should have expected to find opinions all over the place.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . . The nice thing about diving, whether cavern, deco, shallow, quarry, wreck, solo, team, open ocean, warm, or cold, is that the basics all carry over. Proper buoyancy and trim is proper buoyancy and trim. Sure, modifying the configuration means modifying how you achieve that some, but a backkick or a frog kick or a modified flutter kick don't become new skills because I'm in a cavern vs a swimthrough in the Caribbean vs going through the bus at Kraken. Following a line from the deep platform at Kraken up doesn't need a new set of skills compared to following the line I used in Paradise down in Florida. Just because you're not in the environment, doesn't mean you can't utilize or practice most of the skills. A silt out at the bottom of Kraken is going to eliminate vis just fine. . . .

I'm not so sure. Maybe you'd find it is all more challenging in an actual cave, as I did. I thought my buoyancy and trim were pretty good until I had to do it all in what to me (as a newbie) is a pretty confined space, sometimes with a sloping bottom and sloping ceiling. (Laying a line from a reel while following a slope up or down is a great exercise, by the way.) On top of the physical constraints, you have the psychological pressure of knowing how important it is to your well being that you don't silt the place out or otherwise screw up. Kraken is good practice, but I'm not sure it challenges you and drives you to be your absolute best the way a real cave can. Anyway, we are all limited in some way, and we do the best we can as far as getting practice in.

 

[Marie13]

Hey @jlcnuke we met at Kraken Springs once. I was practicing some skills in preparation for an Intro to Cave course.

I can appreciate you have little free time, but is being a once a year or twice a year “vacation cave diver” really a good idea, when you could probably manage a number of weekend trips to FL to keep your skills up? I loved the cenotes, too—just beautiful—but with FL being a mere 5 hr drive from Atlanta, I felt it made sense to do my initial training in FL with the idea of then doing weekend FL trips for the year or so after that, honing my skills until I feel ready to move on. Maybe it wouldn’t have mattered, but I believed it made more sense to train where was I was going to do most of my diving. It’s a lot of driving for little diving, but I believe diving frequently is important. I can drive down on a Friday evening, do 2 short Intro-level dives on Saturday, another dive on Sunday, and head back north in the afternoon. I’ll save the vacation week for Mexico.

I’m into wrecks, not caves, but I just wanted to add this:

I know several people who are very experienced divers who would dearly love to go full cave (currently cavern cert level). But because they cannot cave dive more than 1-2 times a year, they won’t get the full cave cert because they won’t be able to dive in that environment often enough to keep up their skills. Maybe that thinking is a bit conservative, but maybe not.

@jlcnuke You need to get into doubles NOW. The general rule of thumb is to get 20-25 dives under your belt in whatever configuration you use before taking a class with it. I have personal experience that this makes things much easier.

 

[helodriver87]

But because they cannot cave dive more than 1-2 times a year, they won’t get the full cave cert because they won’t be able to dive in that environment often enough to keep up their skills. Maybe that thinking is a bit conservative, but maybe not.

This is also really important. The skills are perishable. You can keep them reasonably sharp practicing in open water, but it's not a substitute for the real thing and there's some stuff you just can't simulate effectively, like navigation, dynamic passage geometry and orientation, etc.

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable cave diving a couple times a year. I think I'd target at least once a month to stay proficient. Doing one or two cave dives a month over the course of a year is going to keep you much sharper, safer, and more proficient than doing a couple dozen on vacation then none the rest of the year. YMMV, but even after a few hundred cave dives, I'd be very hesitant to take an extended break and then jump back into it.

None of this is intended to dissuade you. But as has been mentioned previously, cave diving has a high turnover rate and I think a lot of that comes down to infrequent cave diving. It's worth having a plan to stay proficient if you're gonna invest the time and money into getting trained.

 

[Marie13]

I recall you there then, and if I could mimic your schedule with any frequency, I'd agree. But with 60 hour work weeks being my norm, helping my dad take care of my mom (bedridden, ventilator, feeding tube), being a single person having to take care of everything at my house plus most of the physical activities to take care of the house my parents are in, I'm lucky to get 2/3rds of one day a weekend (maybe) on a weekend at Kraken. The nice thing about diving, whether cavern, deco, shallow, quarry, wreck, solo, team, open ocean, warm, or cold, is that the basics all carry over. Proper buoyancy and trim is proper buoyancy and trim. Sure, modifying the configuration means modifying how you achieve that some, but a backkick or a frog kick or a modified flutter kick don't become new skills because I'm in a cavern vs a swimthrough in the Caribbean vs going through the bus at Kraken. Following a line from the deep platform at Kraken up doesn't need a new set of skills compared to following the line I used in Paradise down in Florida. Just because you're not in the environment, doesn't mean you can't utilize or practice most of the skills. A silt out at the bottom of Kraken is going to eliminate vis just fine. Planning gas usage for my deco classes or dives or solo dives doesn't need a different set of calculations than doing so for cavern diving.

To me, the skills being used/practiced are more important in most things than the environment. Acquiring those skills is still important, but I can't really see that it would be unsafe to do simple cave dives irregularly. Heck, they let me do cave dives in Mexico with nothing more than an OW cert and a guide (and let's not kid ourselves, a lot of the "Cenote tours" are really "trust me cave dives". I can't imagine that after getting the proper training I couldn't do such dives without paying for a guide (or with for a while, then without) and be doing so perfectly safely if I practice the skills in some manner (whether in a cave environment or not) on a fairly regular basis and avoid 'complex' caves. That's kinda my end goal right now. Maybe that's naive, and I'll look back and chastise myself for those thoughts, but that's how things look from my perspective right now.

At this point, I think I'll probably go get some training at some point on backmount doubles and some more experience in them so they're not "new" when I do get around to doing my intro to cave course eventually, which it seems some think I could do tomorrow and others think I need another year of diving in caverns in doubles before considering depending on who you ask lol.

Of course, this is diving, so I guess I should have expected to find opinions all over the place.

You have to figure out how important the tech/cave diving is to you and prioritize accordingly. If that means things hiring someone to do the yard work at your house and your parents’, then you do it. This kind of diving can more easily kill you, so it needs the necessary time dedicated to it, not just a bit here or there.

Either you want it bad enough to make the necessary changes or you don’t. It’s as simple as that. I have a friend who talks much about deep wreck diving, but he puts other things above diving and isn’t anywhere close to even being able to start tech.

And why PADI “tec” (the cutesie spelling instead of “tech” makes my teeth itch)? We all know it depends on the instructor, but PADI “tec” doesn’t seem to be well-respected.

 

[rddvet]

I find it amusing how “easy” it is to dive doubles. It’s absolutely easy to slap on a set of doubles and trim out. I thought that was all there was to it as well. And I felt I could deal with issues. Then I was given the gue valve issue\problem solving algorithm (I can’t remember what they actually call it) and though sh!t I was never taught this much problem solving detail and ended up finding a mentor to actually make me a more proficient doubles diver.

If doubles are so easy how is it that I know technical instructors who end up taking fundies and have their setup tweaked better than they were able to.

Anybody can dive doubles, but not everyone dives them properly without training and experience. As Marie said, 25 dives sounds smart. Even better is a good intro to tech class or a great mentor and then 25+ dives.

 

[jlcnuke]

First off, I'd like to thank everyone for their feedback so far. Currently, I'm debating doing any cave class this February or none at all. I still plan on getting certified, but haven't decided yet on the path to take to get there. I'm perfectly aware that my plan to be an "infrequent cave diver" is a risk level that many are not comfortable with, but I'm familiar with risk management and plan to do everything necessary to ensure I don't take on any cave diving that I'm not confident is within both my training and my abilities/proficiency at the time I do it (in the future) after I get certified. I recognize some aren't comfortable with that, and that's perfectly fine with me. You're concerns are noted and considered, but at this points I'm set in moving down this path eventually anyway.

So, why the hesitancy to do classes right now? Well, after contacting multiple shops/instructors in the area I plan on vacationing, the paths recommended by them range from "spend 7 days of the 8 day vacation to get some practice/training in doubles and redo the entire cavern course then maybe start intro to cave" to "in ~3 days we'll get you trained up in sidemount (which I've never done at all or considered) AND complete the intro to cave course", ïf you want, "use another 3 days of the vacation and full cave is probably doable as well". The former, taking 5 days to get used to doubles and redo a course I've already done and 2 days starting a course I'd hopefully come back and finish with the same people again if nothing changes in the future to prevent that from happening and I decided to do it in that exact location with the same instructor later and they happened to still be there and doing the courses and I could book into a course when I could get back there, seems like a lot of time and money to make a "relatively" small change and effectively finish my vacation with the same certifications I have with nothing close to a guarantee that it would even be useful in the future for getting the certification(s) I'm working towards, while the latter seems like I'd get the training but would it really be sufficient to make me safe at the level I'd be certified at if I passed everything?

So far, none of the options are looking great/ideal. I don't really want to redo the same class I already did, that "another agency" might call equivalent (or might not, who can tell these days), just because I did it in a different configuration, but I do think getting training/instruction in the new configuration is important. Getting that training/instruction AND doing the class over again just seems like a waste of a money/time with that course however. When talking $250-300/day, redoing a course I've already passed, after doing a course to show I'm competent in the new configuration, seems to be a waste of money. Similarly, change configuration and doing another 3 days course and getting both done in 3-days seems like I'll be missing out on necessary experience/training if I'm that rushed through. So now I'm considering if I want to just have some fun on this vacation, do the tec 40/45 courses I already have booked in backmount doubles, get some experience in them, then go do intro with someone that won't make me redo cavern if I have the doubles experience and cavern cert/experience already at some point in the future.

 

[MichaelMc]

I think a good plan would be find a shop/instructor you think knows their stuff, and say:

'I'd like to spend 4-5 days working on my diving in a cavern/cave/doubles/side context,
can we see what we can get nailed down on my skills?"

If that winds up with a new card, great. But it will move your diving closer to what you need to dive cave/cavern/doubles/side safely and with a card.

The one that says we can get you in side and through cave in a few days is likely not the ones with the highest standards on evaluating and coaching your skills.

Optimizing for being assured of a new card, but also trying to get the most learning in - with the card still assured - may be a hard needle to thread.

I think cave could be cool, but I don't have the time or local to put in the constant practice. So cavern and cenotes are my goal. And just swimming amid the fish and kelp.