Considering Dive Master

[boulderjohn]

John, I thought that was the case. But if the instructor is teaching a Rescue course and having DMCs act as panicked, would that really be two courses the instructor is teaching at once (even though the instructor is responsible for the total number of students)? Splitting hairs, I know, and how else is the DMC to get the required experience with a continuing ed. course?

The only issue in that case is the total number of students. What I meant was that if he has a limit of, say, 8 students in one class and 4 students in another, he can't combine those numbers for a limit of 12.

DMCs assist in classes all the time--it is part of their training. You just have to count them as students, not assistants, when they are there.

 

[Mustard Dave]

Most the DMs I know have done it for the wrong reasons. I used to be an active member of a dive club that is attached to the PADI outfit that taught me to dive. I regularly see them trying to talk Rescue Divers into taking the DM course, despite them having no intention of working as one. I experienced this myself, and eventually had to make it clear I am not doing it.

Most of the DMs I know are club members, who dive purely as a hobby. The amount of money charged where I am barely covers the costs of the course; all of the instructors do it in their spare time, and all have well-paid careers, so none are bothered about making money from diving. The instructors there get minimum wage (it actually works out less if we look at the hours they really do). The DMs do not get paid at all, again, they do it as a hobby.

The way I look at it is I would be paying for the privilege of working for free; I could say 'no', but the reality is that every time there is a course on, the owner is on the phone to every DM, asking them to help out. I see divers come through the system from novice to DM, and they barely seem to dive anywhere other than the training quarry.

Of course, others will have different experiences. One of the DMs that came through my local school was fortunate enough to retire early and move to Gozo, Malta. He works for a local dive centre as a dive guide. Maltese regulations only allow divers qualified to 30m to dive without an instructor, so he tends to only guide experienced divers. He doesn't get paid, but he has an understanding that he doesn't hump kit or fill cylinders. His reward is he gets regular dive buddies, free transport, and free air fills.

A Rescue Diver will become a slightly better diver by doing the DM course; your rescue skills should become more polished, as will the skill circuit. With the latter though, I wonder how often people perform the skills exactly how they are taught when they are needed for real, rather than face to face as they generally are in a practice situation. If you are looking to just further your skills, GUE Fundies is a good course to consider.

Dive Master, the first level of a DIVE PROFESSIONAL and as such you are held to a different standard of conduct/liability. You do know your DiveMaster card EXPIRES EVERY YEAR unlike your certification cards. Oh and lets not forget the INSURANCE you have to pay for which is not cheap...

These only apply if you are actively working as a DM. If somebody just does the course to further their own dive education, they are no more culpable in the case of an incident than any other diver. The DM qualification does not expire annually - you just become inactive when it does and cannot work

With regards to Insurance, it depends what you are offering. If you are working as an independent DM, you certainly need to have your own, but if you work through a shop, I'd expect to be included on their policy. This is the case at my local PADI school. I wonder how many employees in other jobs have to pay their own liability insurance? Over here it would be illegal to expect it.

 

[scubawithmike]

Take a Divemaster course that will let you dive all you like and you will be a better diver.

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[TMHeimer]

Most the DMs I know have done it for the wrong reasons. I used to be an active member of a dive club that is attached to the PADI outfit that taught me to dive. I regularly see them trying to talk Rescue Divers into taking the DM course, despite them having no intention of working as one. I experienced this myself, and eventually had to make it clear I am not doing it.

Most of the DMs I know are club members, who dive purely as a hobby. The amount of money charged where I am barely covers the costs of the course; all of the instructors do it in their spare time, and all have well-paid careers, so none are bothered about making money from diving. The instructors there get minimum wage (it actually works out less if we look at the hours they really do). The DMs do not get paid at all, again, they do it as a hobby.

The way I look at it is I would be paying for the privilege of working for free; I could say 'no', but the reality is that every time there is a course on, the owner is on the phone to every DM, asking them to help out. I see divers come through the system from novice to DM, and they barely seem to dive anywhere other than the training quarry.

Of course, others will have different experiences. One of the DMs that came through my local school was fortunate enough to retire early and move to Gozo, Malta. He works for a local dive centre as a dive guide. Maltese regulations only allow divers qualified to 30m to dive without an instructor, so he tends to only guide experienced divers. He doesn't get paid, but he has an understanding that he doesn't hump kit or fill cylinders. His reward is he gets regular dive buddies, free transport, and free air fills.

A Rescue Diver will become a slightly better diver by doing the DM course; your rescue skills should become more polished, as will the skill circuit. With the latter though, I wonder how often people perform the skills exactly how they are taught when they are needed for real, rather than face to face as they generally are in a practice situation. If you are looking to just further your skills, GUE Fundies is a good course to consider.





These only apply if you are actively working as a DM. If somebody just does the course to further their own dive education, they are no more culpable in the case of an incident than any other diver. The DM qualification does not expire annually - you just become inactive when it does and cannot work

With regards to Insurance, it depends what you are offering. If you are working as an independent DM, you certainly need to have your own, but if you work through a shop, I'd expect to be included on their policy. This is the case at my local PADI school. I wonder how many employees in other jobs have to pay their own liability insurance? Over here it would be illegal to expect it.

How liable one is (when just diving as a customer--on a boat for example) according to pro certification or any certification (such as Rescue Diver, where a higher than OW "duty" may be determined), has been discussed at length on the pro forums. Some lawyers chimed in saying each case differs and nothing is black and white. There have also been threads on what happens if an instructor or DM "retires", goes inactive, and gets sued 5 years later.

 

[Mustard Dave]

How liable one is (when just diving as a customer--on a boat for example) according to pro certification or any certification (such as Rescue Diver, where a higher than OW "duty" may be determined), has been discussed at length on the pro forums. Some lawyers chimed in saying each case differs and nothing is black and white. There have also been threads on what happens if an instructor or DM "retires", goes inactive, and gets sued 5 years later.

It is something that crops up frequently, and many of the replies invoke a face-palm when I read them. The basic test of liability is:

• Do you owe somebody a duty of care?
• Did you fail in that duty of care?
• Did that failure case a loss or an injury?

For a liability claim to succeed, all three elements must be present.

You are right that it isn't always black and white, but the fact you are trained as DM does not give you any special status in law. With regards to the insurance issue, it depends on the policy, and you need to speak to the insurer to be certain. Generally, you are covered for the period you pay the premium for, so liability would fall with whoever you were insured with at the time of the incident that caused the loss or injury, irrespective of when the claim was made. Laws and customs differ world wide though, hence the reason I say you need to check with the insurer.

 

[TMHeimer]

Mustard Dave. Think I agree with most you say. Your first point (owing a duty of care)-- I may question what kind (level) of care....If you're not a Rescue Diver or higher you may not know CPR. Then you wouldn't owe someone that level of care perhaps. Same situation if faced with a panicked diver at the surface or uw. Like I say, I agree with your 3 points (not that I'm any expert). But you're sure that being a Rescue Diver, DM or above, having this knowledge, has no effect on a possible lawsuit? Again, I don't know, but as you say, not black & white and some would disagree. Guess it's not unlike the Dr. not wanting to treat a stranger lying in the street for fear of malpractice....but he's not buddied up with the stranger on a dive either. The question of two OW buddies' duties to each other appears to not be clear also, never mind DMs.
Insurance:
To be honest, I was always fuzzy on exactly how DM insurance really works. I know in a lawsuit, PADI will back up the DM/instructor if it is determined he/she acted prudently and usually in line with local protocols (ie., don't take the boat out here in 7 foot waves). If it was determined the DM was for sure at fault, I don't know what his liability insurance would cover. Don't think about it a lot as almost all my dives nowadays are solo.

 

[Mustard Dave]

Mustard Dave. Think I agree with most you say. Your first point (owing a duty of care)-- I may question what kind (level) of care....If you're not a Rescue Diver or higher you may not know CPR. Then you wouldn't owe someone that level of care perhaps. Same situation if faced with a panicked diver at the surface or uw. Like I say, I agree with your 3 points (not that I'm any expert). But you're sure that being a Rescue Diver, DM or above, having this knowledge, has no effect on a possible lawsuit? Again, I don't know, but as you say, not black & white and some would disagree. Guess it's not unlike the Dr. not wanting to treat a stranger lying in the street for fear of malpractice....but he's not buddied up with the stranger on a dive either. The question of two OW buddies' duties to each other appears to not be clear also, never mind DMs.
Insurance:
To be honest, I was always fuzzy on exactly how DM insurance really works. I know in a lawsuit, PADI will back up the DM/instructor if it is determined he/she acted prudently and usually in line with local protocols (ie., don't take the boat out here in 7 foot waves). If it was determined the DM was for sure at fault, I don't know what his liability insurance would cover. Don't think about it a lot as almost all my dives nowadays are solo.

As we have both said, it isn't black and white, but it is safe to assume that somebody with a greater understanding of first aid and rescue skills would react better than a less knowledgeable person. A greater qualified diver would be expected to have a greater ability in a rescue situation, but if that is the case, one could say a rescue diver should carry insurance. The reality is that we can all be sued if our negligence ends up harming somebody, be it underwater, or in the course of or day-to-day business.

Liability insurance only covers the policyholder's legal liability. If the policyholder is not negligent, he cannot be found liable. It would be pointless having liability insurance that did not pay out if the policyholder was negligent - that is the whole point of having it.

 

[TMHeimer]

Yes, I think we pretty much agree on everything. Difficult to disagree when it's just not black & white anyway.