Computer / Software profile question

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

mthirsc

Contributor
Messages
139
Reaction score
0
Location
Guam
# of dives
100 - 199
Please forgive my ignorance if I am missing something. I have seen a lot of comments that dive computers are overly conservative. Yesterday I was running some past dives through v-planner with conservation level +2 (default) and found that it was considerably more conservative on dives that were done with an IQ-700 (aka Nitek duo). The results were interesting, but also made me question whay some people claim dive computers are too conservative? I thought this would be the place to post this question.

Thanks.
 
Realtively minor deco... one example was a 12 min dive to 165' on air, using air for deco. I know, but it was Chuuk. Using the computer, with descent/BT at 12 min, the ascent was 18 mins for a total dive time of 30... and I think I even added another 5 mins at 10 feet for added safety margin.

V-planner shows this as a 38 min dive (IIRC), at least an extra 8 mins of deco compared to the computer.
 
8 minutes is alot closer than I would have expected. I don't know squat about the Nitec or the guts of v-planner though. If I had to guess, I would say the zero conservative setting and the Nitek would be closer together in total time.

As a general rule, (historically) people don't like computers for deco diving not because they are so "conservative", its because their algorithms shoot you up to the shallows and then give you long stops up there. They assume no bubble formation at depth. and off-gassing strictly from the dissolved phase which requires a pressure reduction.

But we know bubbles do form at depth and those bubbles grow with ascent. So for years people have been adding deep stops and shortening the shallow stops. Something many older computers didn't like at all - the deep stops counted against you rather than as off-gassing time. I guess that might be considered "conservative" - only counting shallow time as deco.

There are new computers which have better algorithms which incorporate deep(er) stops to some extent. However, many deco divers prefer to have a thorough undrestanding of the deco curves and then modify the profiles based on their training and experience.

Even the best software/computer is still just a crude approximation of the human body and its physiological processes. Many non-computer divers (still) believe they can come up with a better deco schedule based on physiological first principles than current mathematical models do.

I don't use a computer for deco diving.
 
Thanks for the reply. I have noticed the computer credits deeper stops, but it does not add them to the plan the way v-planner does.

I visited the decompression chamber on Chuuk (not as a patient!) and was told most of their cases involve people following dive computer deco profiles... Add some jet lag or poor health, and it can spell disaster.

So you do not use PC software for dive planning, or were you just speaking of a dive computer?
 
Neither, I use "deco on the fly", aka "DOTF", aka "ratio deco".

Two sources for info on the concept(s):
http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3198
http://www.5thd-x.com/xducation/pdf/ratiodeco.pdf

Basically, by knowing the relationship between standard gases, time, depth, and subsequent deco obligations you can whip up a working schedule in real time. Been "discussed" ahem, debated here a zillion times.

I do have decoplanner, a Buhlmann based program on a laptop that I sometimes play with. But I would never dive one of its profiles, pushing the gradient way too much for me and it ignores deep bubble formation, growth, bubble offgassing, a whole host of physical principles. Someday I might upgrade to VPM, but I don't have much need.
 
Actually although the word "conservative" is often used; in this context it really has very little meaning. That is because although the basic scientific principals of diving are pretty well understood the same can not be said about their application to a specific individual. That is one of the reasons why people will ocasionally get an "undeserved hit", or will survive a "dangerous event".

Mixed in the discussion are the biases for and against tables that are used in a machine vs. tables that are used manually.

Also, there are several different algorithms. Each has its' supporters and critics. Some are very passionate about their choice. But, none of the modern algorithms seems to produce any better or worse outcome than any other.

When a person realizes that a dive computer is merely a device that allows the individual to take the dive tables with them and then continuously recalculates dive parameters based on actual measurements instead of estimates then using the computer begins to make a lot of sense. Why do it in your head using estimates when you can do it precisely by using the machine? Reserve using your mental estimates for deciding if the computer is in the ballpark.

Blindly following any method without a working understanding is not wise.

As for the comments from the folks at the Chuuk chamber: For them to have any useful meaning a person would have to know what the proportion of computer users were vs. non-users. If almost everyone uses a computer, the case in most locations I suspect, then it would logically follow that most of the people getting DCS would have been using a computer.

Spend an hour or two surfing through the multitude of posts on this subject. Then do some independent research on dive physiology. Then decide for yourself what you want to do. After all, it IS your body.
 
When a person realizes that a dive computer is merely a device that allows the individual to take the dive tables with them and then continuously recalculates dive parameters based on actual measurements instead of estimates then using the computer begins to make a lot of sense. Why do it in your head using estimates when you can do it precisely by using the machine? Reserve using your mental estimates for deciding if the computer is in the ballpark.

Computers are very, very precise. Input the same parameters and you get the same answer everytime. Contrast precision with accuracy. Which is how close the answer is to the true answer - in this case a working deco profile. Human beings are variable, day to day. Hydration, rest, work load, energy (food), PFO or other shunts, etc. are all variable.

So your computer will always give you a highly precise answer based on your mix, time and depth. Whether that profile is accurate given all the human variables is where the "undeserved" hits come from.

I suggest not making the assumption that your highly precise instrument is accurate. My head "estimates" may very well be more accurate than your precise computer. I don't care if they aren't precise. I.e. I may gin up a slightly different schedule based on the same inputs. I want a working deco schedule, which need not be exactly the same as the previous dive's.

I can come up with a viable deco schedule in 2 minutes, DOTF works for me. All deco dives are experiments anyway, I see no need to have a precise answer to a varying solution.
 
Glad you agree with me on the essentials and that it is really each person's personal preference on just how to plan and execute their dive. Your choice is to do it in your head. For, others it is to use manual tables. And, for others it is to use a computing and measuring machine.

Actually, your use of the words "precise" vs. "accurate" is a distinction without a difference since, as you agree, each person is different and may even be different from day to day. Either term suffices to make the point of mental estimates vs. calculations based on actual measurements.

Take care:coffee:
 
I understand what you're saying about the DCS cases from compter users in Chuuk... Everyone I saw there was diving a computer. However, many people feel that a computer will prevent them from getting bent, and as you have pointed out this is not always the case... The chamber data was merely affirmation of that.

Now I use multiple sources... tables, software, and use the computer mostly as a timer/depth meter on deeper dives. It is interesting to hear tales of people leaving their computers hanging on a line at 20' to clear them when for me the computer will clear well before my dive ends. Not that I do many deco dives, but I do plan to do some training dives here and return to Chuuk with more tools at my disposal for better planning.

Thanks for all the input.
 

Back
Top Bottom