"Complete Wreck Diving" (manifold vs independent)

[PerroneFord]

Doc, there is no one answer to your question, but many. This is from New Jersey Scuba Diver where the authors describe wreck diving as compared to that of cave diving and solo versus buddy. The general attitude is somewhat derisive of cave and DIR, but they do offer some fundimental challenges of both overheads, and how they are different:

http://www.njscuba.net/gear/trng_07_buddy.html

http://www.njscuba.net/gear/trng_08_dir.html

You know, I read those pages when I knew nothing really of DIR, I read them again shortly after DIRF, and reading them again brings back some chuckles. I think I would give the words more credence if so many of the assumptions weren't wrong. In the time that stuff has been there, I am sure people have offered corrections but I know they fall on deaf ears.

I have had the opportunity to dive with some NE Wreck divers, some professed solo divers, and of course some DIR guys. They really have more in common than not. One thing I do agree with the author about is the no-touch mantra that is prevalent in cave diving, and notably absent from NE Wreck diving. This is a major difference.

The idea of self-reliance reads well in print, but tends to fall flat when one examines diving deaths and accidents. In nearly all cases I've read over the past few years, the assistance of a solid buddy in the water with the victim would appear to have made a major difference. Notice I said a solid buddy. I didn't say some moron in the water with you. The NE wreck dives seem to operate under the assumption that they are "great" divers and "buddies" are crappy divers. Hence the mindset that they'd just "be in the way" or they would "muck things up". I find the cave community (and I don't mean just DIR) seems to feel the opposite. They seem to operate with the assumption that the person entering the cave with them is competent to be there, and competent to lend meaningful assistance in the case of trouble.

Another thing that I consider a fallacy, is that the primary issue with solo diving is gas management. While it is certainly a major consideration of the solo diver, to me, the primary issue appears to be entanglement. At least in wreck diving. Getting into a precarious scenario without being able to extricate oneself is not a problem solvable by more gas in the tank. However, it may well be solvable by having a competent buddy nearby. Of course this is no guarantee, but I like the odds better.

I do not intend this post to be inflammatory in any way. I dive with all kinds of divers on a regular basis. Divers trained by GUE, TDI, IANTD, PADI, NAUI, etc. Open circuit divers and CCR divers. All agencies have something to offer the diver. I think in the end we each find our own way. Some tend toward solo, others toward buddy or team. Some are no-touch kinda folk, and others are "salvage" type of folk. Whatever. Just dive safely, and have fun.

 

[daniel f aleman]

.....................

 

[Soggy]

Doc, there is no one answer to your question, but many. This is from New Jersey Scuba Diver where the authors describe wreck diving as compared to that of cave diving and solo versus buddy. The general attitude is somewhat derisive of cave and DIR, but they do offer some fundimental challenges of both overheads, and how they are different:

http://www.njscuba.net/gear/trng_07_buddy.html

http://www.njscuba.net/gear/trng_08_dir.html

Frankly, the guy on the NJ site doesn't have the slightest idea about what team diving or DIR is about. I refuse to go point by point.

Fact is, Daniel, wrecks can be dived with a team mindset and protocols.

 

[Soggy]

All members of the team are configured the same. What failure could cause the loss of all gas? No need to donate a long hose if everyone has sufficient gas for the entire dive.

Rarely is gas donation a result of not having any gas, especially at technical diving levels. It is usually about having lost access to gas briefly for any number of reasons. The ability to donate gas to your teammate is fundamental.

 

[Thalassamania]

Rarely is gas donation a result of not having any gas, especially at technical diving levels.

Access to gas is really the point and what one needs to be prepared, trained and practiced for.

 

[wedivebc]

Rarely is gas donation a result of not having any gas, especially at technical diving levels. It is usually about having lost access to gas briefly for any number of reasons. The ability to donate gas to your teammate is fundamental.

OK so what scenario could cause that with an independant gas suppy?

 

[Thalassamania]

OK so what scenario could cause that with an independant gas suppy?

Beats me. But then I like independents.

 

[Soggy]

OK so what scenario could cause that with an independant gas suppy?

Rolled off post, gunk in reg, any number of problems can occur where you need access to gas fast and a buddy can supply it.

Are you arguing that when diving independents, there is no need to be able to donate gas immediately without farting around unclipping regs?

I'll try to write up later a more comprehensive post about why I believe independents are unsuitable for team diving. There are many reasons, IMO. I would not get in the water wearing independents or with someone that is wearing independents. That's just me and my philosophy, though.

 

[wedivebc]

Rolled off post, gunk in reg, any number of problems can occur where you need access to gas fast and a buddy can supply it.

Are you arguing that when diving independents, there is no need to be able to donate gas immediately without farting around unclipping regs?

I'll try to write up later a more comprehensive post about why I believe independents are unsuitable for team diving. There are many reasons, IMO. I would not get in the water wearing independents or with someone that is wearing independents. That's just me and my philosophy, though.

You take a strong position against it yet I have yet to hear you or anyone come up with a solid argument against it. Saying you won't get into the water with someone wearing independants you must feel very strongly about it. If so please explain. I can't argue philosophical differences but if you bring some facts to the table I may be able to support my position.
My contention is independant doubles are safer than manifolded doubles with or without a buddy. I am not talking about isloated manifolds or any contraptions here just a pair of good old tanks, back or side mounted doesn't matter.

 

[loosebits]

We're basically debating applying DIR techniques to other environments. I do have a hard time believing that one single (and narrow) mode of diving can be optimal for every environment. I've never seen a convincing argument otherwise. Now, for people who dive in multiple environments, there is obviously an advantage in using the same configuration everywhere. The only issue is whether this advantage overcomes the cost of using a possibly suboptimal configuration.

Well, at least there are a couple of things we can all agree on: spare airs and split fins suck.