thats true but that also doesnt mean that everyone who gets certified is stupid either..i see that you have taken many courses and thats cool ..but just because some of us who dont have those many courses under our belt doesnt mean that we dont know what we are doing..i know of people who were certified this past spring who are very good divers..
competent divers
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sheck33
Contributor
of course not, i did not intend to imply that everyone who gets certified is stupid. But a great many divers think they are competent just because a piece of plastic says they are. But too many divers are being certified that shouldnt be for a variety of reasons. I can assure you that i have been (re)-evaluating my own skill level as a diver ever since i did the DIRF class. Like many other divers i was at a point where i thought my skills were up there untill i found out vast improvements were possible and needed, that was a sobering and enlightening experience and i felt conned by some agencies & instructors. But of course all of this heavily depends on what one considers a 'good' diver
art.chick
Contributor
Here's where the trouble starts; with the idea that not having good diving chops can be equated with stupidity.
In my NAUI leadership book there is a concept about learning that goes beyond the mind to the muscles which also have a learning curve. There is also the difference between having understood the concepts & having practiced them enough to make them automatic in an emergency.
A "competent diver" does not relate to IQ. The kvetching about training & diver incompetency relates most often to the super-brief programs that do not prepare a diver to withstand a long surface swim to a site, to overcome his primal fears (and those take TIME to work thru), and to reacte quickly in heated moments due to extensive practice.
Many less experienced divers (like my roommate) take it very personally when it is suggested that they are not ready for certain dive conditions. they think that slights against the program they passed are strikes against their ability to choose a good class. SO they get defensive instead of listening to those who have more extensive experience, and, worse, jump into situations that are overly challenging to prove they are not "stupid." Then they blame the gear, the boat, their buddy because they are proud, fearing that these mistakes reflect on their general human competency.
Some diving has been geared to provide optimal fun for those with minimal training. This is the result of years of diver tourism. Then there are awesomely fun recreational dives that can easily get you killed if you insist that you are smart enough to handle them, that your agency was good enough, and that everyone who is discouraging you from taking that giant stride is just a stuck-up surf-nazi. Local environments vary - a lot! Task loading includes taking on a site that you know nothing about. A great California diver in Washington State has some things to learn!
Your DM was demonstrating lousy buddy skills by dragging you like a dead cat at breakneck speed. I am glad he has been reprimanded, as what he was fostering is a form of competition in a non-competitive sport. Please, however be open to the concept that being vastly intelligent does not make one immune from diving dangers, & do not let your pride get in the way of safety.
In my NAUI leadership book there is a concept about learning that goes beyond the mind to the muscles which also have a learning curve. There is also the difference between having understood the concepts & having practiced them enough to make them automatic in an emergency.
A "competent diver" does not relate to IQ. The kvetching about training & diver incompetency relates most often to the super-brief programs that do not prepare a diver to withstand a long surface swim to a site, to overcome his primal fears (and those take TIME to work thru), and to reacte quickly in heated moments due to extensive practice.
Many less experienced divers (like my roommate) take it very personally when it is suggested that they are not ready for certain dive conditions. they think that slights against the program they passed are strikes against their ability to choose a good class. SO they get defensive instead of listening to those who have more extensive experience, and, worse, jump into situations that are overly challenging to prove they are not "stupid." Then they blame the gear, the boat, their buddy because they are proud, fearing that these mistakes reflect on their general human competency.
Some diving has been geared to provide optimal fun for those with minimal training. This is the result of years of diver tourism. Then there are awesomely fun recreational dives that can easily get you killed if you insist that you are smart enough to handle them, that your agency was good enough, and that everyone who is discouraging you from taking that giant stride is just a stuck-up surf-nazi. Local environments vary - a lot! Task loading includes taking on a site that you know nothing about. A great California diver in Washington State has some things to learn!
Your DM was demonstrating lousy buddy skills by dragging you like a dead cat at breakneck speed. I am glad he has been reprimanded, as what he was fostering is a form of competition in a non-competitive sport. Please, however be open to the concept that being vastly intelligent does not make one immune from diving dangers, & do not let your pride get in the way of safety.
Arduous
Contributor
Just for the record, I dont like the idea of certifying 10 year olds to dive. In fact Im completely against it. However, Im not the one calling the shots here in the dive industry. Who would I be to tell a large agency like PADI or NAUI that they should not be certifying 10 year olds, even though I believe they are wrong in doing so.
Unfortunately dive training is a business aimed at making money and it can be likened to martial arts training. In martial arts training, as long as you attend your classes and pay your dues, every few months youll get a nice new colored belt. Having a belt of a specific color, does not make you a martial artist. Being a defensive tactics instructor, I have seen many so called martial artists that could not hold there own with a drunken teenager and I have seen many untrained individuals who were quite a formidable opponent.
Diving is the same way. I have seen those that hold a dozen c-cards in a dozen specialties that have no business being in, around or near the water. I have also seen brand new open water certified divers that are extraordinarily confident and comfortable in the water and I would not hesitate a moment to dive with these individuals. .Arduous
Unfortunately dive training is a business aimed at making money and it can be likened to martial arts training. In martial arts training, as long as you attend your classes and pay your dues, every few months youll get a nice new colored belt. Having a belt of a specific color, does not make you a martial artist. Being a defensive tactics instructor, I have seen many so called martial artists that could not hold there own with a drunken teenager and I have seen many untrained individuals who were quite a formidable opponent.
Diving is the same way. I have seen those that hold a dozen c-cards in a dozen specialties that have no business being in, around or near the water. I have also seen brand new open water certified divers that are extraordinarily confident and comfortable in the water and I would not hesitate a moment to dive with these individuals. .Arduous
art.chick
Contributor
Hey Arduous,
I have had some experience with the kids in OW classes & feel the same way. I do not think that the profit-making potential of expanding the market justifies this trend. I prefer to teach younger kids snorkelling & skin diving which has skills applicable to scuba later on.
I have had some experience with the kids in OW classes & feel the same way. I do not think that the profit-making potential of expanding the market justifies this trend. I prefer to teach younger kids snorkelling & skin diving which has skills applicable to scuba later on.
Arduous
Contributor
Forgot to throw the instructor into the equation on the above post. Your instructor is paramount in your training. Whether its diving or martial arts or any other activity for that mater, your instructor can make all the deference in the world. A quality instructor who cares about his students and has pride in his ability to teach and pass on knowledge will turn out the best student divers. These instructors are not driven by financial gain, but by the love for the sport. Yes they may be making a living from teaching, but its their passion for the sport that makes them the best. Give a caring instructor a student who is receptive, willing to learn and has the aptitude for the activity being taught and you will see great divers emerge.
.Arduous
.Arduous
Well now, the short answer is *yes*, but how do YOU define safely? Safe is a relative term, oh avuncular one, and we can beat this one to death if you really like (and I suspect you do
)."Safe" at it's most basic means to me:
-the ability to avoid or remedy all the situations that can be harmful to a diver. The BASIC list of things that can happen to a diver to hurt or kill them is short: run out of air, ascend too fast, hold your breath, stay down too long, not control buoyancy, not monitor tables or deco status, lose or damage gear, lose orientation U/W.
I think if the average diver can avoid those, have fun and not annoy Uncle Pug, we can consider them competent. Even if they don't get any style points.
Obviously, as the dive gets more complex, more attention to detail is called for, but anything that can go wrong in a cave, I suppose, is covered in my basic list.
I've seen plenty of *ugly* divers who have thousands of dives done safely. And to art.chick, I have seen more than a couple of not-so-bright dive competently!
Neil
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example"
Pudd'nhead Wilson
I go away for a day and a half and I miss a fun discussion.
Snuggle,
Competence isn't about speed. The most competent divers I know are not the ones who rush around the reef.
Competency, as others mentioned, means different things for different types of dives, different training levels and different levels of experience.
Speaking of a competent OW diver who's just completed their certification requirements, there are a number of things which come to mind.
You should be comfortable swimming around without a mask. That does not mean pinching your nose, that does not mean holding panic at bay.
You should have a handle on buoyancy control. You know what it feels like to be neutrally buoyant and how to fine tune your buoyancy with breathing. You are far from mastering buoyancy, but you have a feel for it and mastery will come with practice.
You know specific breathing techniques for controling panic.
You can easily perform simple skills such as clearing a mask 3 times on one breath (not on SCUBA), doff & don, bailout, mask and snorkel recovery (not on SCUBA), swim 300 yards, you can effectively use 5 different kick techniques, you do not use your hands to swim when wearing fins, etc.
"because i sank to the bottom (which by the way we were swimming just above the bottom)instead of hovering im now incompetent?"
You are not as competent as you could be, but this does not make you incompetent. Keep diving, pactice will help. Understanding a better course of action is the first step towards achieving it.
"gee i thought the fact that i knew that if i continued i was close to hyperventilating..and that i took steps to control the situation that i was competent even though it was my first open water dive..hmm ..."
You were correct. The fact that you were not neutrally buoyant and sank to the bottom is an indication you need to practice (as do we all) buoyancy. The fact that you knew enough to stop is an indication you are a thinking diver. Never stop thinking.
Arduous,
"Give me a break, we are certifying 10 year olds to dive for crying out loud."
I'm not and neither are many other instructors. As far as I'm aware, only two of the many agencies are certifying 10 year olds.
"I dont like the idea of certifying 10 year olds to dive. In fact Im completely against it. However, Im not the one calling the shots here in the dive industry. Who would I be to tell a large agency like PADI or NAUI that they should not be certifying 10 year olds, even though I believe they are wrong in doing so."
First, NAUI doesn't certify 10 year olds. They are against the practice.
Second, you have every right to voice your opinion publically and privately. You, I nor anyone else should be able to mandate changes on agencies, but we have the obligation to tell them what we believe to be right.
Snuggle,
Competence isn't about speed. The most competent divers I know are not the ones who rush around the reef.
Competency, as others mentioned, means different things for different types of dives, different training levels and different levels of experience.
Speaking of a competent OW diver who's just completed their certification requirements, there are a number of things which come to mind.
You should be comfortable swimming around without a mask. That does not mean pinching your nose, that does not mean holding panic at bay.
You should have a handle on buoyancy control. You know what it feels like to be neutrally buoyant and how to fine tune your buoyancy with breathing. You are far from mastering buoyancy, but you have a feel for it and mastery will come with practice.
You know specific breathing techniques for controling panic.
You can easily perform simple skills such as clearing a mask 3 times on one breath (not on SCUBA), doff & don, bailout, mask and snorkel recovery (not on SCUBA), swim 300 yards, you can effectively use 5 different kick techniques, you do not use your hands to swim when wearing fins, etc.
"because i sank to the bottom (which by the way we were swimming just above the bottom)instead of hovering im now incompetent?"
You are not as competent as you could be, but this does not make you incompetent. Keep diving, pactice will help. Understanding a better course of action is the first step towards achieving it.
"gee i thought the fact that i knew that if i continued i was close to hyperventilating..and that i took steps to control the situation that i was competent even though it was my first open water dive..hmm ..."
You were correct. The fact that you were not neutrally buoyant and sank to the bottom is an indication you need to practice (as do we all) buoyancy. The fact that you knew enough to stop is an indication you are a thinking diver. Never stop thinking.
Arduous,
"Give me a break, we are certifying 10 year olds to dive for crying out loud."
I'm not and neither are many other instructors. As far as I'm aware, only two of the many agencies are certifying 10 year olds.
"I dont like the idea of certifying 10 year olds to dive. In fact Im completely against it. However, Im not the one calling the shots here in the dive industry. Who would I be to tell a large agency like PADI or NAUI that they should not be certifying 10 year olds, even though I believe they are wrong in doing so."
First, NAUI doesn't certify 10 year olds. They are against the practice.
Second, you have every right to voice your opinion publically and privately. You, I nor anyone else should be able to mandate changes on agencies, but we have the obligation to tell them what we believe to be right.
First off.. I think to make a blanket statement like "I dont like the idea of certifying 10 year olds to dive. In fact Im completely against it." is a little premature.. While its true some 10yr olds should not be certified their are exceptions to the rule and every child as every adult should be evaluated by the instructors and parents on a case by case basis if they are compentent enough to dive.
To make such a statement would be like saying "I dont like the idea of certifying adults" based on the fact that some adults have no place even being near the water let alone doing scuba..
As to carrying gear.. I know many kids who couldnt carry their snow gear near the moutain without assistance.. I dont think that should be a disqualifer anymore than saying because a handicap diver cant carry his gear he has no business being near the water...
Ryan Stone
IDCS
To make such a statement would be like saying "I dont like the idea of certifying adults" based on the fact that some adults have no place even being near the water let alone doing scuba..
As to carrying gear.. I know many kids who couldnt carry their snow gear near the moutain without assistance.. I dont think that should be a disqualifer anymore than saying because a handicap diver cant carry his gear he has no business being near the water...
Ryan Stone
IDCS
Ryan,
Are you in favor of not having a minimum age? Your arguments tend to support such a position.
Are you in favor of not having a minimum age? Your arguments tend to support such a position.
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