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Walter once bubbled...
Ryan,

Are you in favor of not having a minimum age? Your arguments tend to support such a position.

Walter, I get your point... and to be honest.. I think their are ALOT of dangerous sports that children participate in that don't have age limits that are just as Inherently dangerous as scuba. The fact that the dive industry has taken that approach has removed that decision process from the instructor who is obviously not compentent enough to make that decision on a case by case basis. I will not certify someone who I believe is a danger to himself or others around him, as it should be.

Ryan Stone
IDCS
 
a 13 year old boy who has been diving since he was 11. I have a girl who is 10 who is not ready. AGe is not as significant as the kind of person they are. When my son was doing his pool training, the instructor watched his skills and I watched his eyes. I was interested in seeing how he handled stress mentally. It is his nature not to panic or stress-he is a "measure twice cut once" kind of kid. That has been borne out since-he has been in some very stressful situations and handled it beautifully.

That being said, there are other things I take into account when I dive with him:

-I consider diving with him another task to be factored into my load.
-Although I always do S-drills when I dive, I do them more with him.
-I do not dive just with him-we are always off a boat around others or in a quarry around others.
-I do not dive low viz with him except quarries, and when we do that, the main purpose is to train him in low viz.


This is hard parenting-it is NOT like diving with just another buddy. But I DO count on him to save my life, and he has demonstrated the ability to be able to do so.

Finally, the most important skill I think he learned was to never hesitate to call a dive. He has proven to be a worthy diver.

Unfortunately, none of the above is required in getting a card. We have all seen incompetent divers, and a young person's lack of life experience coupled with lack of skills is a dangerous mix.

BTW-on our last dives, some SEALs on the boat complimented him on his diving-we were on a wreck (55') and there turned out to be a 2 KT current and he handled it.

Ken
 
Walter once bubbled...
Ryan,

Are you in favor of not having a minimum age? Your arguments tend to support such a position.

Let me start fist saying I haven't certified someone that young..

I believe by now setting an age limit they are officially saying its okay for all 10 year old children to dive.. I would prefer no official limit stated so its totally at the discression of the instructor to take students or not.. having it set at 10 might put pressure on alot of instructors from store owners who just sign people up.

I have a good friend whose also an instructor but will not instruct family members so he asked me to teach his 10 year old son.. The child actually had a better base knowledge than the adults in the class mainly because my friend and his wife both dive alot and are always discussing matters. after strugling to get gear to fit, i put him in the pool... it was quite clear he wasn't going to progress past pool training... He was not confortable enough in water.. if he grew up in a place that he was in a pool everyday things would probably be totally different..

I know one child who is now 12, that has been diving since he is 7(his father who is not an instructor showed him the basics and used to bring him on shallow dives), the kid grew up in the water... He was jumping off a diving board at the age of 3... For a child like this I would definately prefer professional instruction over what was done.. He was certified this year but probably would have passed it anytime over the period of time he was diving with his father.
 
padiscubapro,

When an agency sets limits, it does not mean you have to go to the limit, it means you can't go past the limit.

My agency lets a minimum age limit of 12. Frankly, there are few 12 year olds I'm willing to teach. Very few are ready emotionally, mentally and physically to be diving. If my agency were to drop their minimum age to 10 or eliminate it all together, I still would not teach anyone younger than 12 and very few of them.

"would prefer no official limit stated so its totally at the discression of the instructor to take students or not.."

Prior to 1986, that was the case in some agencies. I personally saw divers certified as young as 7.

"having it set at 10 might put pressure on alot of instructors from store owners who just sign people up."

Anyone with so little backbone they'd fold to such pressure has no business teaching diving. The solution is not to eliminate the minimum age, but to raise it.


Ryan,

"I get your point"

I'm sure you do, but you haven't answered the question. I'd really like to hear how you feel about it.

kwesler,

"we were on a wreck (55')"

You might reconsider the possible ill effects deep dives might have on your child's development. I taught my son at age 13. I limited him to 2 dive trips per year with a max depth of 45 ft until after he stopped growing. While I have not seen any conclusive evidence that deep or frequent diving does cause harm to children, I certainly am not willing to risk my son's health. Better safe than sorry.
 
I am aware of the research and stick to the max of 45'...55' was max, and it was to try to get under the current by sheltering on a specific level on the wreck. You are quite correct that the effect of pressure on growing bones is as yet undetermined. That whole dive as a bit of a CF due to conditions! (Not us-the plan got blown away as soon as we were on the wreck)

Ken
 
I have worked with a lot of kids over the past year. Under the supervision of a scuba instructor, I taught some kids snorkelling. One turned 12 this year & was given scuba lessons as a gift from his diving dad. He has better skills as a result of snorkelling & skin-diving than some kids his age have going in cold. I think that snorkelling is a much more age-appropriate activity for a child.

I have (as mentioned in another thread) assisted in SASY programs (Supplied air snorkelling for youth.) This program can be appropriate for kids under 10 or in their teens. The success rate as others have mentioned can vary by the kid. It can also vary by the amount of time the program lasts, the resources available to the program, & the time of year the program occurs.

Kids have pressures in life that we adults don't relate to: homework in school during the schoolyear that preculdes study of the scuba writtten material, childlike boy-girl relations that make many kids unable to be effective buddies in class, shyness with strange adults that make them fear asking questions or attracting attention till there is an emergency, inappropriate competition issues in the water, transportation issues as they rely on adults with other obligations to drive (and parents often don't take the child's obligations seriously, althought the primary relationship seems to be between the parent & the instructor, not the child & the instructor.) I have had some wealthy spoiled kids treat me as a servant, expecting me to shlep their gear. Their parents could stand to teach them to be kind to servants.

So your kid is "different" and smart & special. Some are. I have seen many kids who were raised in the ocean & can do a rescue at age 10. But I notice that this discussion is among adults, the ones who have to teach or pay for this hobby for the kids. Obviously, a child cannot decide independently to spend thousands of dollars on classes, equipment & travel, so he MUST have parental approval (if not pressure) to do this. I really wonder with many of these kids who the classes are for, anyway.

I suspect in some cases that there are some family dynamics other than a child's interests at work, ie: a divorced parent trying to find a way to monopolize a child's time in a scenario that the other parent can't participate in. Or, perhaps, Mom or Dad is impatient at the idea of having to snorkel with the kid instead of doing what (s)he really wants to do (her)himself. I have only met a couple kids (in a subsidized SASY program) who wanted to do this to be among friends their own age. SCUBA can be a great part of family intergenerational recreation (as part of a camping trip, etc.) and a few kids see it as a way to feel more grown-up like mom or dad. Because kids have to dive with parents, however, diving can contradict the need many kids this age have to hang out with their pals. One 12-year old asked me after a dive, "Are the grown-ups really happy after a dive, or are they all just drunk?" Guess. Fortunately, he had his Walkman.

Most kids under 13 who I see in scuba do not finish the program. Like tuba lessons & modern dance, it was fun until it became work. The books are written to be accesible, but the vocabulary and density can be a little over the heads of a child. Is the adult prepared to assist in homework of another subject? One 11-year old girl sat in the classroom sessions mugging for her dad, doodling, and antzing around. Sitting still for several hours was too much for her.

From a leadership point of view, the responsibility heaped onto the instructor is way more than the class fee can cover. Not only is the instructor given the added pressure of keeping someone's kid safe, but he must also entertain & engage someone with a naturally short attention span. Would the child himself really be considered responsible if he were hurt due to not paying attention? I honestly have surmised that this marketting push realizes full well that this lowering of the age bar simply harvests the funds of parents with lots of cash.

There are always kids who can drive, fight a war, vote responsibly, and pass medical school at age 10. They are exceptions, but they exist. Perhaps they should not be held back because there are others who will not think as adults till they are 40. It is the parents & instructors who move these little pawns around. Neither party has much information yet about the dynamics of working with this age group in SCUBA. My suggestion for thos who think their kids want to persue the sport is to see how they do in a skin-diving program with kids their own age for a while. Better to spend $150 on basic gear than thousands on scuba stuff for a kid who finds that he really does not want this as bad as others want it for him.
 
many excellent points. Our observation is that, in general, parents are far too permissive with their kids, creating a lack of discipline and responsibility...but that is a discussion for another thread.

I guess the real question here is whether certs for kids should be prohibited because the majority are not ready, or permitted for the few that are.

Despite my son's ability-I vote for "no certs under 15"-he would not have been hurt by the wait. He has plenty of years to dive.

My $.02

Ken

BTW-I do not think my son is smarter, or even more mature than other kids. There is just something about his nature that lends itslef to this kind of activity. He has no desire or aptitude for team sports, but has a precocious sense of responsibility and mental calmness. He also went to Australia as a member of People to People, and they commmented on the same thing.
 

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