Common Fundies Mistakes

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Sounds like you just need some more time underwater.

I agree with 'more time underwater'. But there is more to it than 'just' spending time. It needs to be effective time. Repeating mistakes, stagnating, or fighting senseless battles is just wasted time - underwater or not.

Again, this thread is about how to make the Fundies experience more effective. Let's get back to that.
 
Again, this thread is about how to make the Fundies experience more effective. Let's get back to that.

Then stop talking about timing stops to the seconds, how many taps it takes to get the Xen to work, and whether that maxes out your UW capacity. If those taps are a problem its self-inflicted - like changing exposure protection or tanks right before class.
 
Richard -- I didn't intend to imply (nor of course did I write) that having an unstable teammate in Fundies doesn't make demonstrating the skills more difficult, if not impossible -- in fact that IS my point. Clare, on the other hand, said that Fundies is not team dependant:
Tech or cave classes may be team dependant but Fundamentals is not.
The question I was attempting to raise is that IF Fundies is NOT "team dependant" then why put the diver with the instructor or videographer? Your answer is, of course, because if not, then the "good" diver can't get a pass -- well doesn't that mean it IS team dependant then?

Also, if, say, in Cave 2, one teammate is having issues with "X" then why shouldn't THAT teammate be substituted for the videographer or instructor too? Why should the rest of the team (who are all being judged on THEIR skills) be held back in that case?
 
Also, if, say, in Cave 2, one teammate is having issues with "X" then why shouldn't THAT teammate be substituted for the videographer or instructor too? Why should the rest of the team (who are all being judged on THEIR skills) be held back in that case?

I was not held back in Cave1 when buddy #1 dropped out of the class and buddy#2 could not demonstrate the skills required. Of the 3 of us, I am the only one who passed. Having dodgy teammates in C1 and T1 makes it tougher to pass but its not precluded.

Its a bit of a gray scale on how "team dependent" anything is.
 
I've had attrition on all of my GUE classes. I think Cave 2 was the only one where everyone passed.
 
Your answer is, of course, because if not, then the "good" diver can't get a pass -- well doesn't that mean it IS team dependent then?

No, it doesn't :)

It means that if one student is more able than the others to perform skills, they can perform them with the instructor or videographer in order to get a pass commensurate with their skills.

This means that regardless of the rest of the "team" one person can still pass, which is definitely not "team-dependent"

Now obviously I highly doubt Clare or any other GUE instructor is going to start that person out buddied with the videographer from day 1, but only if it becomes obvious that they are not able to show their full skills otherwise.

Seems reasonable to me.
 
Also, if, say, in Cave 2, one teammate is having issues with "X" then why shouldn't THAT teammate be substituted for the videographer or instructor too? Why should the rest of the team (who are all being judged on THEIR skills) be held back in that case?

In my experience, they aren't. I think it's up to the instructor to try to make sure everyone has as fair a shot at the class as possible, but also taking into account the goals of the class.

For me, GUE-F is more of a basics class, so more emphasis has to be on helping people get the basics even if that means someone more advanced is doing "easy" stuff to start with.

From what I have seen, GUE instructors are pretty good at sussing people out, and juggling things around to try to maximize everyones time and effort.

In our C1 class, only 1 person passed (not me)
One had done all the skills, but not enough dives (because he put his shoulder out and missed a day) and I had not completed all the skills.

I think with GUE-F it can also be a bit more variable as there is a larger chance you are diving with people you dont know, and since it's often the first exposure to that kind of training, it's not always obvious to each person what level they are at or what to expect.

For later classes, I think it's more likely people will bring their regular buddies, and they probably have a better idea how things will go.

I highly value the GUE training I've received, and never once thought it wasn't worth the time, money or effort I put in
 
No, it doesn't :)

It means that if one student is more able than the others to perform skills, they can perform them with the instructor or videographer in order to get a pass commensurate with their skills.

This means that regardless of the rest of the "team" one person can still pass, which is definitely not "team-dependent"

Now obviously I highly doubt Clare or any other GUE instructor is going to start that person out buddied with the videographer from day 1, but only if it becomes obvious that they are not able to show their full skills otherwise.

Seems reasonable to me.


Exactly.
 
Peter-
If you're not going to hold people to standards, then what's the point of standards? Other organizations have decent standards, but then everyone passes the classes.
Maybe for Heli-trox it's different, because you can't do certain dives without the card,
but for Fundies, where the card really doesn't matter one bit, why pass someone who didn't meet the standards, even if you think they will with more work--that's what a Provisional is for.

That said, I do think there's a serious problem, but it's with people getting all wound up about the Pass. The card really doesn't mean anything, yet people treat it as though the class isn't going to be as worthwhile if they don't pass. Of course, it's the exact opposite: the class is worth the most to those who need the most improvement (provided your buoyancy and trim are at least halfway sorted out going in to the class).

Since many people seem to have issues realizing that the card doesn't matter*, perhaps they should make the distinction more explicit:
-Have Fundies be a four-dive class.
-Have the checkout dive be a fifth dive.

Most of the time classes would be taught just as they are now, with four consecutive days, but the split might encourage people to defer the checkout and so forth.

elvisisalive-
I see what you're saying with it not being a technical class and with teammates' skill levels mattering, but I disagree a bit with the premise. In some sense, Primer is about skills and Fundies is about team. The class made me a much better team diver, and has made me more pro-active about problem solving even 'just' doing rec. dives. Again, the problem here is the dichotomy between learning and passing. For learning, strongly emphasizing team to a diver who'd hoped to waltz through with a tech pass because their individual buoyancy/trim was great is a good thing. For a pass, perhaps it shouldn't be a requirement. Certainly it's harder to standardize, but I think team skills are no less imiportant than individual skills, and so if possible my vote is for still including it in the pass/fail standards.

It sounds like the issue with Peter's teammate who failed due to the valve drill was less about team not being important than about a problem early on in the course being used to decide whether the student met standards. My instructor seemed to use the checkout dive to primarily determine whether standards were met. I'm sure if someone consistently displayed an unsafe attitude in the earlier dives that would factor in, but for the standards it seems to all come down to the checkout dives. That seems fair to me, since if the student came back a week later to re-attempt, that one dive would be the sole measure of evaluation.

lamont-
My understanding is that the rec pass doesn't exist as a "you didn't quite make a tech pass." It exists to allow people to take Fundies who want to refine their skills in a recreational context. Thus the single tank/no lights allowance. I point this out because viewing a rec pass as a lesser pass is in some sense a disservice to the message that Lynne and others have been working to promote, that Fundies is a useful class even if you have no intent on ever donning doubles.

Ari

* Card does matter of course if you want to go on to take Tech1/Cave1, but in that case you'd want to do more than just barely pass, and the pass should be secondary to the skill acquisition.
 
Ari,
I appreciate the explanation about Primer being a skills based course and Fundamentals being a team based course. This, I did not know. Whom are you writing about that thought they were going to "waltz" through with a tech pass?

At the same time, fundies has been a course that has been recommended to be taken sooner than later. Now, put that new diver in a class with a diver with some GUE experience. When does the new divers lack of skill dominate the class and how is that required to be mitigated? At what point does the experienced diver get seperated from the "team" for the evaluation? Aren't the students being evaluated constantly during class? What is the experienced diver getting out of class while the new diver is learning the skills? Is it even a requirement for the instructor to do this (stand in as the teammate)? What if there isn't a videographer? At what point in time is the experienced diver expected to put their individual performance before the team? Remember, fundies isn't team dependant. But it is a class about team. So how does the student know when to give up what they are supposed to be learning so their individual skill can be evaluated? What are the requirements for "teamwork" to meet the standards? For T1/C1 you wouldn't want just a minimum pass. Isn't that what a tech pass means? I don't understand what you mean by that statement.

It is improper though, for you to say what the card does or doesn't mean for anyone else. Then to say that it does matter if T1/C1 is a goal of the diver. If people didn't care if they passed, because it doesn't matter, than why would anyone take fundies? If the pass doesn't matter, than why not give the rec pass. It doesn't matter right. Part of the value of passing is the nitrox cert isn't it? So how does trim, or team, or basic 5 skills, change whether or not someone learned the nitrox content? The nitrox cert is just one of the things that offsets the cost of fundies, and makes the class have more value.

You are right about one thing: getting all worked up about passing doesn't do anyone any good. This is just one of the ways though that someone can take fundies and not get the same value/learning out of the class that so many others have.
 
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