Common Fundies Mistakes

[rjack321]

I think it's good to see if you hit a breaking point in training where the risks are much less, versus finding out in the middle of a big dive where consequences could be much worse.

There's merit for T1/C1 and up. The value of learning how to (e.g.) back kick while too tired to really think about it is highly dubious.

 

[Clare]

Be careful when you give advice based on your own personal experiences. It can be helpful but it does not cover all circumstances.

May I?

#2: Not taking Primer first

Without mentoring you should probably take Primer as an entry level introduction to GUE diving and the standards and spend time time with an instructor. This class is currently the best kept secret in GUE, but utilizing it would likely prevent a lot of frustration with fundamentals. If you are already diving with a lot of DIR/GUE trained divers you can probably skip the Primer, but otherwise Primer is likely a better idea.

Sorry - I haven't ever taught a primer and it is simply not necessary. That does not mean it is not a good class but it is certainly not a pre-requisite to Fundamentals and should not be thought of in that way.

#6: Taking a 6-person course

While the standards allow for a 6-person course, this creates logistical issues, and I'd warn students away from signing up for courses this size. A 4-person course in 2 teams of 2 works well, particularly when there's a tech-oriented team and a rec-oriented team, otherwise the sweet spot is the 3-person course made up of students at roughly the same level.

I could take quite a lot of offence that you are presuming that all instructors who accept more than 4 students on to a class are automatically giving them less.

Think about it - if you have two teams of two in water then you, as instructor can only spend half your inwater time with each team when we move to individual skills. (A good instructor can achieve better than this but the premise stands)

When you move to more than 4 you have to double dive. This may mean that people are sitting on the side but when they are in water they get 100 per cent attention from the instructor.

A well organised class has surface support watching students gear up and de kit, leaving the instructor to dive back to back - meaning that the students 'waste' only the time it takes to dress or undress after the dive - and perhaps get a drink. This you dismiss as 'unprofessional?'

#7: Not thinking your buddies experience levels matter

The other students in the course will affect your success and you should make sure that you're not the odd one out. Having courses with 2 students that are relatively new and rec-oriented with one tech-oriented student, or vice-versa can be hard on the course. Its best if there's someone there diving the same gear with roughly the same experience and goals.

I'm sorry - again that takes the view that an instructor is unable to ensure that every student gest the chance to be the best that they can be. If an instructor cannot do that then they have no business teaching.

We are talking Fundamentals here - if I have a diver who can earn a tech pass who has buddies that are not up to that standard then I will buddy him with the video diver or even take part in drills with him myself to ensure that he gets every opportunity. Tech or cave classes may be team dependant but Fundamentals is not.

#10: 5 straight days vs. split courses

With a local instructor one option is to do a split-weekend course with 2 or 3 weekends 'off' in the middle to practice. This can greatly reduce burnout and can let the student get in some solid diving outside of class to brush up on skills. Obviously, this is only an option with a reasonably local instructor. If you are flying in to the course or the instructor is flying in to the course this isn't going to be available to you.

I've taught both. The split class wastes time, the momentum is lost and the day on day progression can take a step backwards. The instructor has to get the class to a point where you can go practice. It kinda forces a 5 day class just to cope with the re-caps and performance deterioration incurred.

It can work. It can fail - you just can't make bold statements that one is better than another.


In summary - many your points which I have not commented on (like talking to your instructor, not using new gear, not aiming for a tech pass, getting good rest and nutrition, keeping shorter days) I do agree with, but I worry that threads like this end up making people feel that they will not be good enough so they don't book on. It is not basic training for marines - it is a diving class and a professional instructor will have considered the logistics well.

I have had a student with 15 dives pass fundamentals (rec pass, wet suit in warm water). I have had people dive doubles on the class for the first time (I don't advise this) and get a solid tech pass. I have run 6 person classes where students have had 6 dives long each with my full attenion (my favoured class size is still 3) and I have had a full on hurricane in the middle of a four day foreign class which ened up with us doing search and rescue overnight and reduced my inwater days to 2 - a class we still finished successfully for those involved.

 

[rjack321]

In summary - many your points which I have not commented on (like talking to your instructor, not using new gear, not aiming for a tech pass, getting good rest and nutrition, keeping shorter days) I do agree with, but I worry that threads like this end up making people feel that they will not be good enough so they don't book on. It is not basic training for marines - it is a diving class and a professional instructor will have considered the logistics well.

Agree! The problem we've had is mostly with travelling instructors who fly in once in 3 years, purport to show everyone how to dive and then are rarely heard from again. Logistically during class, addressing provisionals, and community-wise this is a tough position.

I have had a student with 15 dives pass fundamentals (rec pass, wet suit in warm water). I have had people dive doubles on the class for the first time (I don't advise this) and get a solid tech pass. I have run 6 person classes where students have had 6 dives long each with my full attenion (my favoured class size is still 3) and I have had a full on hurricane in the middle of a four day foreign class which ened up with us doing search and rescue overnight and reduced my inwater days to 2 - a class we still finished successfully for those involved.

Sounds like you are less wound around the axle than some other Fundementals instructors, Clare. Thank you.

 

[limeyx]

Thanks Clare!

 

[Peter Guy]

Clare, if I may respond:

A well organised class has surface support watching students gear up and de kit, leaving the instructor to dive back to back - meaning that the students 'waste' only the time it takes to dress or undress after the dive - and perhaps get a drink.

But what about a non-well organized class that does NOT have surface support (and in the GUE world, must the surface support be another GUE instructor or does any "Tom, Dick or Harry" qualify -- since, as far as I know, GUE does not have "DM" type of person?) to watch the "surface" team while the instructor works with the "inwater" team? Then what? (This, BTW, appeared to be part of the problem with the class that (I think) led to this thread.) How does one efficiently teach two teams with just one instructor and no other help except the videographer?

if I have a diver who can earn a tech pass who has buddies that are not up to that standard then I will buddy him with the video diver or even take part in drills with him myself to ensure that he gets every opportunity. Tech or cave classes may be team dependant but Fundamentals is not.

Why would you have the "good diver" buddy with the video diver IF, as you say, Fundamentals is NOT "team dependant?" If, indeed, it isn't, then why would it be necessary to split the "good diver" from the "not-so-good" diver? In reality, aren't you saying that Fundamentals IS, in fact, team dependant? And should not the GUE instructor be able to determine whether an issue of the "good diver" is a result of that diver's ability or, to the contrary, the other teammates?

 

[Lobzilla]

Clare,

I have said the same thing to Garth. You guys in the UK are different - in a good way - when it comes to GUE.

However, when you want to improve something, like safety in aviation, marine, or rail environments, you look at the wrecks and not at the successful passages.

We just had a serious train wreck of a class in Florida (covered on SB ad nauseam) and your success in the UK is not invalidating the lessons we can learn from that.

Instead of blaming these wrecks on students or instructors we should understand the dynamics that inhibited an efficient and fruitful cooperation between the parties. The environments I mentioned above (rail, marine, aviation) have understood and addressed the root causes of systemic failures and that is why you enjoy safe travels today.

I think that Lamont's list is a good start to understand what fundamental issues are governing success or failure of a class. You may get away with one or two of these Do-Nots; but pile up too many and the ship is going to sink.


Additional analogy to get my point across:
There is a thread discussing the Xen bottom timer. Several people have commented that the way to activate the stop watch is a major nuisance. Then, one person says that he does not have a problem with this. Apparently, he is a better man than the rest; but the feature is still an unnecessary reduction of the product value and fortunately Liquidvision agrees.

 

[rjack321]

Why would you have the "good diver" buddy with the video diver IF, as you say, Fundamentals is NOT "team dependant?" If, indeed, it isn't, then why would it be necessary to split the "good diver" from the "not-so-good" diver? In reality, aren't you saying that Fundamentals IS, in fact, team dependant? And should not the GUE instructor be able to determine whether an issue of the "good diver" is a result of that diver's ability or, to the contrary, the other teammates?

Peter, I have been in more than one class where (e.g.) S-drills are not going well. One diver continually corking for instance. Allowing the seemingly qualified diver to actually demonstrate that competency with either the instructor, videographer etc so that they can get a "tech pass" makes sense. Just because the already competent diver looks like they might have it together for a complete and well excuted s-drill doesn't mean they actually do. This way Clare (and others) are not passing students "on faith" or "trust" they have seen and evaluated the specific skill to completion.

 

[PfcAJ]

\
Additional analogy to get my point across:
There is a thread discussing the Xen bottom timer. Several people have commented that the way to activate the stop watch is a major nuisance. Then, one person says that he does not have a problem with this. Apparently, he is a better man than the rest; but the feature is still an unnecessary reduction of the product value and fortunately Liquidvision agrees.

Oh come on. You exaggerated the number of steps, and I simply clarified. Get over it. "Better man than the rest", you've got to be kidding.

Someone apparently ordered a whamburger with a side of frenchcries.

 

[Lobzilla]

Oh come on. You exaggerated the number of steps, and I simply clarified. Get over it. "Better man than the rest", you've got to be kidding.

Someone apparently ordered a whamburger with a side of frenchcries.

Hey, it was not me who listed the unnecessary steps but I admit that I had you in mind with the "better man" comment.

Compared to me, you, rjack321, and others are seasoned veterans. Some of you may have forgotten that newbies have other fish to fry (to stick with the fast food theme).

I NEED to stack the odds in my favor because most skills have not been transferred to the subconscious and compete for a fixed amount of processing capacity. A cumbersome bottom timer, an incoherent team, or a badly prepared for class, just suck up capacity that I would like to commit to learning.

The arrival at a stop is a busy time. You need to stop in the first place, at the target depth, keep the team together, re-adjust buoyancy, etc. The last thing I need is umphteen taps to keep track of how long I need to stay there. (30 seconds later, if all goes well, I would not mind to have some distraction, especially when I have to hang there for some time).

Coming back to the Fundies, I am assuming that people go there to learn something. If we can assure that there is maximum capacity for understanding and practicing new skill, that would be a good thing IMO. So, get rid of all the crap that just inhibits your capacity to learn and execute. That's what Lamont's list is trying to suggest.

 

[PfcAJ]

Hey, it was not me who listed the unnecessary steps but I admit that I had you in mind with the "better man" comment.

Compared to me, you, rjack321, and others are seasoned veterans. Some of you may have forgotten that newbies have other fish to fry (to stick with the fast food theme).

I NEED to stack the odds in my favor because most skills have not been transferred to the subconscious and compete for a fixed amount of processing capacity. A cumbersome bottom timer, an incoherent team, or a badly prepared for class, just suck up capacity that I would like to commit to learning.

The arrival at a stop is a busy time. You need to stop in the first place, at the target depth, keep the team together, re-adjust buoyancy, etc. The last thing I need is umphteen taps to keep track of how long I need to stay there. (30 seconds later, if all goes well, I would not mind to have some distraction, especially when I have to hang there for some time).

Coming back to the Fundies, I am assuming that people go there to learn something. If we can assure that there is maximum capacity for understanding and practicing new skill, that would be a good thing IMO. So, get rid of all the crap that just inhibits your capacity to learn and execute. That's what Lamont's list is trying to suggest.

Sounds like you just need some more time underwater.