Combat diver student drowns - Key West, Florida

[Wookie]

I do not know those numbers, with the wayback machine, 3353 and such comes to mind. What's the deal?

3353 was your NEC, submarine, reactor operator, ET, non-supervisory. I was a 3395, surface, mechanical operator, MM, Supervisory.

8204 was my class number at Orlando (1976-1998) nuc school (1982, 4th class). You went to Mare Island (1958-1976) IIRC, but could have been Bainbridge (1962-1976).

 

[Bob DBF]

3353 was your NEC, submarine, reactor operator, ET, non-supervisory. I was a 3395, surface, mechanical operator, MM, Supervisory.

8204 was my class number at Orlando (1976-1998) nuc school (1982, 4th class). You went to Mare Island (1958-1976) IIRC, but could have been Bainbridge (1962-1976).

Thanks. Mare Island 1968. Right next to the Swift Boat school, some interesting nights in the north end EM club, and why they put it on the second floor of a barracks building is beyond me.

 

[Aaron Harmon]

Being an Airborne Infantry veteran, I can tell you that our training was frequently vary dangerous and in most cases there was little room for error. What these guys were training for was next level. I'd hate to say that supervision was suboptimal, but clearly there was a failure in the system on some level. This is a tragedy.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I was an USAF Pararescueman from 1967 to 1977, and went through the U.S. Naval School for Underwater Swimmers, at Key West, Florida. While extremely tough, the instructors there were all over us, and we never had an incident of shallow water blackout. The same goes for our pre-conditioning training at Orlando AFB, Florida. We were in the water a lot, and even though I was a competitive swimmer, I had a lot of trouble with cramps from running all morning and swimming in the PM. I had already become a Red Cross Lifeguard and swimming instructor, and actually taught one of our Pararescue trainees how to swim. I had also already experienced shallow water blackout in the swim team, and had a working knowledge of how to prevent it from college, where I looked it up in physiological papers. He had impressed the PJs when in the tryouts at Lackland he jumped into the pool, and went straight to the bottom. The PJ instructors had to dive in and pull him to the surface, asking, “Rendell, what the hell’s going on?” He replied, “I can’t swim, sir,” through exhausted teeth. He graduated half way up in the Underwater Swimmers School. I think these “accidents” started happening when they switched to Special Forces training with the Army.

SeaRat

PS, after reading the article about the cause of death being under review, I doubt this was shallow water blackout. It seems more likely to be a medical problem that was unanticipated, and it appears that the personnel in charge made a very fast and heroic attempt to save this Sergeant’s life.
Cause of death still being sought for Green Beret who died at dive school

 

[Bob DBF]

I think these “accidents” started happening when they switched to Special Forces training with the Army.

I think it has more to do with the downsizing of the military over the years is more the cause of the problem than who is getting trained. The idea of getting more done with less only works for so long.

I would bet the there is less staff now to train the same number of students as when you were trained.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I think it has more to do with the downsizing of the military over the years is more the cause of the problem than who is getting trained. The idea of getting more done with less only works for so long.

I would bet the there is less staff now to train the same number of students as when you were trained.

I’m not sure about this hypothesis, as there is another thing not yet mentioned—duration. When I went through the U.S. Naval School for Underwater Swimmers, it was (I think—from memory) a four week course. The Special Forces diving course according to the article is now a 7 week course. There is also a bit of a different mind-set between the Navy and the Army.

SeaRat

 

[NothingClever]

Boys, let’s not get silly…both of the combat dive producing services are strong and well-led.

We can’t minimize the tragedy of a training death, especially for the family. But likewise, we can’t let an isolated incident suddenly shift our entire outlook to downsizing or curriculum changes as the problem.

Both VADM Wyman Howard (NSW) and LTG John Braga (USASOC) supervise the investigative procedures for their services to determine the facts, precipitating factors, causal factors and any negligence in accidents inside any of their skill-producing courses. They are responsible for reviewing and approving course changes and, if negligence is found in an accident, recommendation for punishment to those responsible.

Both commanders answer to objective, Jointly-manned safety boards convened by SOCOM and I can assure you GEN Clarke (SOCOM Commander) reviews the facts and each service’s investigation to ensure we don’t get sloppy. This is not one service versus another.

If there were a pattern or sequence of incidents, then that would indicate a leadership problem. However, this is an isolated incident. And on the other side of the coin, the NSW’s BUD/S and USASOC’s CDQC programs of instruction have been undergoing annual reviews and refinement since the 1940s and 1960s respectively so that rules out a curriculum problem.

We ask our young special operations candidates to condition, train, prepare and conduct dangerous missions in the TTW and OPs boxes of hostile adversaries. You can’t produce tough, resilient combat divers committed to accomplishing the mission without there being some risk in training. Stress the divers? You bet. But get sloppy and casually kill special operations dive candidates? No way. People are the precious resource to be properly conditioned, trained, supported, cared for and employed to address the nation’s interests.

The candidate should be celebrated for daring greatly.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

@NothingClever

I wrote very quickly after my last post, in a PS that wasn’t posted for some reason, that after reading this article, it appears to me that this was probably a medical situation (the subject of this thread, and not a training oversight. The instructors responded immediately, within seconds, and had a emergency vehicle stationed on site. I hope my above comments will not be misconstrued. Here's the article:

Cause of death still being sought for Green Beret who died at dive school

Yes, this is a tragedy. But it seems now to me that everything possible was done to keep Staff Sgt. Micah Walker alive.

SeaRat