Cold in 80^+ pool in a 7mil...????

[Wijbrandus]

I was cold in a hot tub after two hours once.

I knew I should have turned it on.

Seriously, I was told that if the water is under 86F, wear a wetsuit. 86F is as cold as it can get before your body can no longer keep up with the heat loss. I may look silly in a full 3mm in 84F water, but then I wasn't the one complaining at the end of the week. Yes, I'm a wuss.

 

[Sideband]

MSTUDLEY,
Umm. That is exactly how a wet suit works. Nowhere does it say that water is an insulator. What it DOES say is that your body brings the "thin layer of water" up close to body temperature and then that warmed water is insulated from the colder surrounding water by the neoprene of the suit. Flushing replaces the water warmed by your body with cold water and will then again need to be warmed, thus a suit that does not fit correctly is not as warm as a properly fitted suit. Also, a suit that is too loose makes room for more than a thin layer of water which requires even more energy to heat.
The fact that they allow water in is not a design flaw. If it didn't then it would be a dry suit. Since there are so many thicknesses and designs of suits it is your job to determine which one is proper for the dive you plan to make. Picking the wrong exposure protection is not a flaw in the design of the suit. That's like saying jogging shorts have a design flaw because they are cold in the winter.

The water needs to be warmer than 88 deg. F to stop heat loss. It would have to be equal or greater than your own body temp. If you only have a body temp of 88 deg. F then you should get to a Dr. fast because you are hypothermic.

 

[mstudley]

MSTUDLEY,
Umm. That is exactly how a wet suit works. Nowhere does it say that water is an insulator. What it DOES say is that your body brings the "thin layer of water" up close to body temperature and then that warmed water is insulated from the colder surrounding water by the neoprene of the suit. Flushing replaces the water warmed by your body with cold water and will then again need to be warmed, thus a suit that does not fit correctly is not as warm as a properly fitted suit. Also, a suit that is too loose makes room for more than a thin layer of water which requires even more energy to heat.
The fact that they allow water in is not a design flaw. If it didn't then it would be a dry suit. Since there are so many thicknesses and designs of suits it is your job to determine which one is proper for the dive you plan to make. Picking the wrong exposure protection is not a flaw in the design of the suit. That's like saying jogging shorts have a design flaw because they are cold in the winter.

The water needs to be warmer than 88 deg. F to stop heat loss. It would have to be equal or greater than your own body temp. If you only have a body temp of 88 deg. F then you should get to a Dr. fast because you are hypothermic.

I think you and I are arguing the same point just in different terms... I think. However water in the suit is heated by your body which therefore decreases your core body temperature (where else does the heat come from?). The water may be warmer than it was but your core temp has still been lowered. I don't believe letting water in is a design flaw, just a limitation of the equipment. Wetsuits slow the rate at which you lose heat... and that's all. They do not keep you warm or make you warmer.

 

[pete340]

However water in the suit is heated by your body which therefore decreases your core body temperature (where else does the heat come from?).

Heat comes from metabolism. Your body generates it when it converts food into energy and waste products. When your metabolism can't keep up with the heat being lost your core temperature goes down. It's much easier to do that in water than in air, because water is better at absorbing heat. But a stationary layer of water inside your wetsuit doesn't cause any heat loss. It's just the initial heating that requires additional energy. And, of course, if water is flowing in and out you have to keep reheating it...

 

[mstudley]

Heat comes from metabolism. Your body generates it when it converts food into energy and waste products. When your metabolism can't keep up with the heat being lost your core temperature goes down. It's much easier to do that in water than in air, because water is better at absorbing heat. But a stationary layer of water inside your wetsuit doesn't cause any heat loss. It's just the initial heating that requires additional energy. And, of course, if water is flowing in and out you have to keep reheating it...

Right... metabolism which occurs in the body... which is the heat source, which uses energy created through metabolism to heat your body and subsequently the water (which isn't always stationary as you also pointed out) of a lower temperature which now surrounds it. All the water is doing is drawing heat away from the body, not insulating it.

 

[LuvDaOcean]

...but you need to accept, in a wetsuit, you are never going to be warm in Monterey.

And that's why I booked our checkout dives in FL, but I still keep hearing, "You'll be just fine in Monterey!" over and over and over. Makes me feel like a total wuss. (oh, and, pue, if you read this, jus' shuddup! lol!).

The addition of a hood and gloves fixed her problems. Were you wearing these in the pool?

No, I wasn't. I had them with me, but the instructor said we wouldn't need them.

That or get a dry suit.

It does seem to be boiling down to that, doesn't it?

It sounds like it's time to get fitted for your own suit, something with good seals in the limbs and include some sort of head protection. Lot's more in the exposure protection forum.

It's often said to be best to can get certified in the most challenging water you plan to dive as a novice.

I'd love nothing better than to get my own suit since the rentals don't seem to fit me no matter what size I try on. One of the other students in the class was having the same problem last night as I was having with my first rental - he was being choked to death. Also, after my son got his suit on and was trying to zip it, he asked for my help with it. A quick look and I saw that it had broken on him while he was trying to zip it himself, so he had to do the pool session with only the neck velcro stuck together.

Problem is, I really don't know what sort of diving I'm going to end up doing, so until I figure out whether I'm going to be a WWW or not, I don't want to invest a gob of money into something that may end up as a closet ornament.

I may look silly in a full 3mm in 84F water, but then I wasn't the one complaining at the end of the week.

I plan on renting a 5mil full suit in the Keys. Wonder if they even have 5mil rentals in the Keys???


Anyway, I've really been dithering about the Monterey dives. I've been trying to convince myself (family and friends are, too) that it won't be that bad. But after last night's experience, I'm dithering even more than ever now. I feel like slamming a frying pan on top my head - maybe I'd be able to make a decision then!

 

[spectrum]

If you truly are someone who chills easilly then going dry may be the best may to go. I'm going wet for starters mainly because I like beng wet. I do plan to go dry and time will tell how much use the 7mm suit sees after that! I plan to continue skin diving and that's best done wet.

You mentioned the other decision point and that is; where will you dive. Diving means many different things to many different people. Here in Maine we're blessed with an abundance of fresh water and ocean dive sites We have fresh water that hits the mid 70's on the best summer days, 10 degrees less in the ocean, those are surface temps by the way. For my desires taking up SCUBA only to dive on trips given my travel budget would be a crying shame by all accounts and I'd be hard pressed to justify the investment of time and money to be a safe diver. I do hope to enjoy at least a few once in al ifetime warm water experiences, hopefully more.

That said there are many many divers with the wherewithall to travel and dive and that suits them. Many live in more temperate regions some as local divers and/or vacation travel divers. It's all about what works for you and what meets your needs, no right or wrong answers.

That being said if you do choose to go wet then the best option if you are not fitting well in off the rack suits is to seek out a custom suit shop in your area that can personally measure and fit you onsite. That is one huge advantage you have being in CA that we lack here.

Before going custom remember that sizing and proportions vary between brands so try a few.

Pete

 

[MissyP]

Had to laugh when I read your post because I have sooo been there!! The pool we used in OW was 81 F and I was literally shivering & my teeth were chattering- I was miserable! I am a cold natured person too, but I couldnt understand HOW I could be freezing in 81F, 7mm suit :06:
The thing was- we never used our hoods or gloves in the pool, so I never realized that was where I was losing all of my body heat from (I think you lose like 40-something % your body heat through your head). Our first OW dive, I was expecting to jump into ice cold water & freeze the entire time- but- with the hood & gloves on, I was FINE! I did add a hooded vest for an extra layer of neoprene though & I love it!
I hardly ever get cold in the water (until we hit those thermoclines- brrr!!!).

Just wondering also, do you feel any anxiety or stress when you're in the water? Both can tire you out (tense muscles, heavier than usual breathing, etc), which can add to your feeling cold...

 

[Wristshot]

LuvDaOcean,

It has been a few years since I got certified in San Jose/Monterey, but I remember it well. The advice about the hood is well taken. Not to say that you will be "warm" in Monterey with a hood on, but you will stand a better chance.

Remember that when you were in your pool session you 1) did not have a hood on so you lost a LOT of heat through your scalp, 2) you were probably not very active, sitting around watching others and waiting your turn, 3) you were in the water for a long period of time and 4) you weren't wearing gloves. All of those helped you to get chilled.

You should have at least one more pool session, so you can try a few things to see what helps. Add a hood and gloves, and that should help a lot. When you are in the pool, try to keep moving. Not like a hummingbird, but some movement to keep the blood flowing and to warm you a bit.

Most important of all, talk to your Instructor. Let them know what is going on, how you feel, and about your concerns. Your Instructor is in a much better position to check the fit of your wetsuit than we are. Also, if you suddenly start moving around a bunch without warning your Instructor, they could get either concerned or annoyed. If the pool is colder than you think, the Instructor will probably be able to tell. (someone in your class will have a computer!) Finally, your Instructor can help you decide if you need another layer for the Ocean dives.

Of course at any time during any of the OW dives if you start to get too cold, you definitely need to let your Instructor know. They should have already talked to you about shivering etc.

All that being said, I must warn you about something. (not trying to scare you, but to let you know) We were warned in advance that our ocean check out dives would seem colder than subsequent ocean dives. Why? Because the first cert dives often involve a lot of hovering and waiting while everyone executes their skills. My buddy and I got chilled during our first cert dives because of this. When we were doing the navagation portion, and some cruising around after the skills were completed, it was better because we were moving.

I have since dove in Monterey in colder water, and for longer periods of time without feeling as cold as I did on those first two dives. Typically that is because on my other dives I was moving around more, and that helped keep me warm(er).

Remember that everyone has a different metabolism and a different tolerance of cold. It is nothing to be ashamed of if you get cold. The bad thing would be to do nothing about it or to keep it to yourself.

After you get certified, try a couple more dives in Monterey before you decide whether you are a WWW. You might find that it is not so bad.

Lots of people start in Monterey, then after diving tropical, they never go back into the cold. I have several friends that won't dive around here at all. (I have a friend in Florida that wouldn't dive once in 84 degree November water because it was too cold) Too each his/her own, but Monterey diving has a lot to offer.

Just my thoughts and opinions,


Wristshot

 

[Sea View]

LuvDaOcean,
I can relate; I dove Kauai in early Feb. this year - 2 dives approx.100ft at 72F degrees
with a rental 3-5-3 full suit (arms-chest-leg) I froze! - couldn't do a 3rd dive!

I usually dive Channel islands multiple boat dives (3-4x) in 5mm w/hooded vest w/no issues. I found that that rental 3-5-3 suit was the culprit, it has been used so much in the pool and OW classes that it had lost most of it's capability as a thermal barrier. I also noticed it had become very spongy which allowed it to compres drastically at depth which is a great recipe for the chills.

I used to assist in classes, I know first hand how rentals are typically used & abused - they generally get quit a bit of use and little if any TLC which promotes accelerated wear.
It may be that the rental suit is just not working nearly as well as it did when it was new (even if it's not that old - may have a lot of dive time on it) and that 7mm is now only as warm as a new 5/4.5mm - they do wear, loosing isulation properties.

An older suit would also be more likley to let warmed water out the arms & legs because it's lost it's stretch or ability to fit right next to your skin.- which is only casuing warm to be replaced by colder water - 80F sounds warm, but it's literally 18.6ish F colder than your body is attempting to maintain (i.e 98.6F typical).

The closer (& assumes correct) fit of a new suit will also reduce the water channeling effect keeping what little water that got in - stay in (another reason for gloves & boots - tends to keep warm water in as well as heat from escaping those areas) - just a few thoughts!
- Don't give up!
JC