Clearing some1 elses mask. Possible?

[Nay]

Ah, you're right. I read your post very differently the first time. My interpretation of prevention v cure was in prior training and not in anticipating a problem in the moment before it happens. My normal DM is amazing a showing up right before something might have gone wrong and that kind of anticipation thru paying attention is probably something that doesn't get enough attention.
To be honest, I don't know what I would have done. From reading his post, grabbing the diver to stop or slow the ascent would be my gut reaction but you're right, you can't prevent someone hellbent on surfacing. Maybe handing her your mask (or a backup ideally) so she has one and maybe will calm down and focus on putting the mask back on instead of surfacing. But can you effectvely help someone while you're "blinded" and not 100%? It seems like if it's something you are comfortable with, distracting the diver from surfacing with something else to do wouldn't be a bad idea. She didn't panic when she took the mask off, she paniced when she lost it.
During my AOW deep dive, as we were descending down the line at 15 or 20' a one of the student's masks began to leak, she paniced and headed for the surface. The DM surfaced with her and she went back to the stairs and then he joined the rest of us. She's normally a confident diver but I think the combination of a leak (quite a bit of water) and the nerves about the deep dive just prevented her from thinking clearly.
I'll be taking my rescue class in a month or two and still have so much to learn, but what would you normally do in a situation where a student diver (or any diver really) panics and tries to bolt? Can you help prevent it?
thanks for the clarification.

 

[Nay]

And I do hope that you understand that even though it was your post that I responded to, it wasn't directed specifically at you. There are so many posts out there that would rather shoot someone down than offer help. It's not our job on scubaboard to be online diving counselors but I love the free exchange of ideas and can get so frustrated at what feel like brick walls sometimes.
thanks again and happy diving.

 

[Diver0001]

And I do hope that you understand that even though it was your post that I responded to, it wasn't directed specifically at you. There are so many posts out there that would rather shoot someone down than offer help. It's not our job on scubaboard to be online diving counselors but I love the free exchange of ideas and can get so frustrated at what feel like brick walls sometimes.
thanks again and happy diving.

I understood your frustration and I didn't take it personally. Don't worry. I'll respond to your question about what I would do later today. Right now I have to go diving.

R..

 

[ASUPaula]

This is something I find really frustrating on this board, and this isn't just you, Diver0001, it's a lot of people.
You can only control your training and that of your students to a degree. You have no control over other people's training or how they will react in any given situation.
If I encounter a diver, be it my buddy or someone else entirely, having a problem like this or any other, I can't swim by and say, "well, that person shouldn't be diving if they can't deal with it." or jump out of the water to yell at their instructor.
So, instead of stating the obvious like "You should be able to do that if you're a diver," why not look at possible solutions to the problem if it does arrive? She was in an OW class and it's totally normal to feel some panic during a mask removal that early in the game.

I'd rather see solutions to dealing with problems that shouldn't happen in the first place but sometimes do. So many times I read on this board criticisms of other's diving training or whatnot that are speculative and completely unproductive.
SquattingRadishDM was looking for options in case this kind of thing happens again.

Just my personal vent.
Happy Friday.

I was thinking precisely what you articulated so well. Thanks.

 

[SquattingRadishDM]

Get the diver to pinch their nose shut before they panic. He waited too long before intervening and let the genie get out of the bottle, making his problem much harder to deal with. I wasn't there when it happened so it's hard to say if it could have been avoided but I firmly believe that with these kinds of things you need to look to solutions to root problems and not solutions to what happens after it spins out of control. I think that RadishDM understood that message.

Diver0001 - I agree that with hindsight pinching the divers nose shut is probably the best solution. As to whether I waited to long, I didnt wait. The moment the mask left her hand I rushed to pick it up, trying to NOT "let the genie out of the bottle". However she went straight up a second or two after she realised the mask was not in her hand. She was fine with the mask in her hand as she COULD clear her mask. unfortunatly her first thought was not "Oh woops, the instructor or DM will pick my mask up for me", instinct took over.

I understand that you are not personally attacking me Diver0001 as you yourself accknowledge that you cant say it it could have been stopped, as you were not there.

PS Posts can get misinterpretted, this was posted with no malice or hostility, just clearing up the facts.

-Jack

 

[Diver0001]

Diver0001 - I agree that with hindsight pinching the divers nose shut is probably the best solution. As to whether I waited to long, I didnt wait. The moment the mask left her hand I rushed to pick it up, trying to NOT "let the genie out of the bottle". However she went straight up a second or two after she realised the mask was not in her hand. She was fine with the mask in her hand as she COULD clear her mask. unfortunatly her first thought was not "Oh woops, the instructor or DM will pick my mask up for me", instinct took over.

I understand that you are not personally attacking me Diver0001 as you yourself accknowledge that you cant say it it could have been stopped, as you were not there.

PS Posts can get misinterpretted, this was posted with no malice or hostility, just clearing up the facts.

-Jack

HI Jack,

I'm starting to think I came on too strong. Sorry. Given your description of the situation I think the only thing you could possibly have done is grab hold of the BCD while at the same time grabbing the mask back. I usually take hold of the strap that goes across the cummerbund when I'm anticipating trouble (discreetly) but I don't pull on it unless the student goes. Generally speaking (and there may be more exception to this than rule) holding the student on the bottom and making physical contact, like a hand on the shoulder, or even better (I find) on the upper arm where they can feel it better, will calm them down. IN the situation you described, for example, I may have grabbed the BCD at the first sign of trouble and recovered the mask with my free hand. If the student tried to go I would try to arrest that and push the mask back into their hands. There's no telling what would happen after that, but assuming they took the mask in their hands (what I would expect) then I would move my hands to the shoulders where they could feel me and then help them get it back on again. If that included pinching the nose and breathing then I wouldn't pinch it off myself. i would place the student's hand on their own nose and get them to pinch. If they *did* manage to overwin their panic reaction and replace the mask then don't forget to give them a giant dose of positive reinforcement for that. Having a panic reaction and wrestling through it to do the right thing isn't a failure to do the skill correctly (of course it is for the standards but that's not what I'm talking about), it's an extremely valuable experience and demands positive reinforcement.

Assuming the situation was totally derailed and student was hell-bent on surfacing then there is only one thing to do. Get under them, hang on and slow or arrest the ascent until you are sure they are breathing. If you don't see bubbles you need to arrest the ascent until they start again. Go as slow as you can to the surface and start from square one again. Make sure you explain exactly what will happen the next time something similar happens.

Nay, if you're still reading then this is about what I would try. The caveat I would add to this is that there are a million possible endings to this story and you just need to react on intuition (as Jack did) and do what your experience and instincts tell you are right at that moment. It's easy to play the arm-chair coach when you're behind your computer but in reality it all happens ten times faster than you can think about it.

On that note I'll say for the record that I think Jack did the right thing. He took control, insofar as it was possible, went up with the student, tried to slow the ascent and he's looking for ways to deal with the same thing happening again. In my book especially the last bit is the most important. My apologies once again if I somehow roadblocked that.

Rob

 

[SquattingRadishDM]

Cheers Rob

I understand I did everything by the book. I was accually hovering about 4ft off the bottom at the time the incident happened and caught my sister as she went passed, so just missed grabbing the mask at the same time.

Still all turned out ok, and I got to show my instructor I was paying attention which got me extra 'points'(or whatever) towards my DM certification.

Nay, good luck on your Rescue Diver course. It changes the way you dive and view other divers. I sometimes spend a whole dive watching the divers if I am with loads of inexperienced people even if its just a pleasure dive. Its just the instincts .

Take care

-Jack

 

[Kamala]

Not much to add in the way of substantive comments as a newbie diver, but having done my first 2 OW dives in the murky fetid water of the undersea lodge, I can certainly understand why someone wouldn't want to have their eyes and nose exposed to it. I actually enjoyed getting water in my out in the ocean after a few errant gulps of Jules Verne nastiness.