Children die playing with scuba gear left in pool - Jensen Beach, Florida

[John the Pom]

I don't think we disagree about safety systems in general.

However, in specific instance of managing tanks with hypoxic mixes, the goal is not to protect the general public from wandering into a hazardous situation; rather, it is to help the owner of the tank avoid using the wrong tank. Warning labels, proper storage, and the discipline not to leave regulators on tanks with hypoxic mixes may be enough for this objective. Evidence that the tank in this case was labeled and stored without a regulator would likely change my opinion.

I still don't know what safeguards instead of or in addition to Steve Lewis's advice you would recommend. So I think I'm still not sure of your point.

We're probably just agreeing. In your previous post you only talked about labels, and I made the point that labels alone are not recommended for mitigating a potentially deadly hazard. In your last post you said labels plus storage plus other physical measures. and there I would agree.

For a scuba tank filled with helium, the likelihood of an accident is 'possible' and the consequence is 'catastrophic' which would classify it in the highest category of risk under e.g. ICAO classification - so labels alone would definitely not be an acceptable mitigation under standard safety practise.

 

[rjack321]

Dunno about you, I tend to not speak when I do the "couple of breath while watching the SPG needle move" thing. I don't think 3 breaths is enough to pass out either, unfortunately.

3 breaths on 100% helium and you will probably get woozy and fall off your chair. you definitely feel it, the gas is actually removing oxygen from your body on top of not replacing what you metabolize.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Ok snorkeling!

Snorkeling is fun and relatively safe. My sons started snorkeling at 14-18 months, well before learning to swim without fins or inflatables on their arms...
It is incredible how easily they did learn to evacuate the snorkel when it get filled with water. Children have a much better control of the valve system in their throat and nose than an adult.
I facts children who had been regularly exposed to being underwater since their born (as my ones) keep the marine mammalian reflex, so their valves close when the nose is in contact with water. It is impossible for them to drown...
On the other side, the marine mammalian reflex makes it difficult for them to open their epiglottis for breathing underwater from a reg or from a snorkel without mask.
So around 14-18 months you start teaching them to breath from the snorkel without mask,.
With nose in contact with water, the reflex causes the epiglottis to close, so they cannot breath, After a couple of months of exercises, they manage to control their valves, and to open the epiglottis when needed for breathing.
At that point they are technically ready for a reg.
But we preferred to wait another year, playing with the snorkel, for being sure that they could understand the risk of ascending without exhaling.
During that additional year, they did practice hundredths of times the exercise of exhaling when ascending, even if, not having got air from a tank, there was no risk if lung overexpansion: even if the pool was just one meter deep, we did wait that they did learn to always exhale while ascending before allowing them to play with a pony tank and a reg...

 

[mderrick]

From a safe practices standpoint, the answer is that you never boost undiluted helium into an open-circuit scuba cylinder to begin with. Leave it in the K or T it came in, vent it, blend it, give it away, give it back to your gas supplier, or purchase or rent a smaller cylinder (than a K or T) with a CGA580 valve on it.

This! From experience working at a high volume fill station... labels are far from a fool proof solution for a variety of reasons explained previously by others in this thread.

 

[Chavodel8en]

My sons were good divers at the age of 8. They both started using an air tank in the pool around 2.5 years old. At 5 years they were doing their first real dives in the sea, at depth of no more than 5-6 meters. But at 8 years they were really good, with perfect buoyancy and breathing control, excellent kicking technique, and they were able to do any kind of exercise, such as removing all the equipment (including tank, fins and mask) and then wearing it again. Or buddy breathing with a single reg while swimming horizontally or up to the surface.
We did teach them very slowly, it did take years to arrive at a decent level and we never made steps too big for them.
Our main concert was to avoid lung over-expansion, we did train them for avoiding this risk since their first usage of a tank in the pool (which had a max depth of one meter). Only three years later we did bring them in the sea, when we were absolutely sure that even in case of an emergency ascent, their conditioning had caused them to exhale and to avoid lung over expansion.

Would you let your 7 & 9 year old children scuba underwater, even in a shallow pool, unsupervised?

Because if the answer is "no" (and I hope it is), then it shows that there is a limit to how proficient we consider a 9 year old to be.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Would you let your 7 & 9 year old children scuba underwater, even in a shallow pool, unsupervised?

Because if the answer is "no" (and I hope it is), then it shows that there is a limit to how proficient we consider a 9 year old to be.

Of course In did never leave my sons alone in the pool, albeit I think that having an air tank is safer than freediving in the pool. I did see a number of accidents occurring to children and adults while freediving, I got twice a syncope doing that in the pool, and if there was no one supervising me, I was dead.
Luckily enough here in Italy in most pools there is always a safety assistant on duty.
However, if it had been occurred to be forced to leave my children in the pool unsupervised, I had much preferred leaving them with an air tank than without it.
The real risk in the pool is drowning after an hypoxic syncope, caused by freediving for too long. This risk is probably 10 times larger than having an accident with a scuba system.

 

[Scraps]

We're probably just agreeing. In your previous post you only talked about labels, and I made the point that labels alone are not recommended for mitigating a potentially deadly hazard. In your last post you said labels plus storage plus other physical measures. and there I would agree.

For a scuba tank filled with helium, the likelihood of an accident is 'possible' and the consequence is 'catastrophic' which would classify it in the highest category of risk under e.g. ICAO classification - so labels alone would definitely not be an acceptable mitigation under standard safety practise.

Yes, I do think we are in agreement. I was comparing labels to no system at all. You were comparing labels alone to an optimal system. Always good to clarify. Thanks.

 

[Chavodel8en]

Of course In did never leave my sons alone in the pool, albeit I think that having an air tank is safer than freediving in the pool. I did see a number of accidents occurring to children and adults while freediving, I got twice a syncope doing that in the pool, and if there was no one supervising me, I was dead.
Luckily enough here in Italy in most pools there is always a safety assistant on duty.
However, if it had been occurred to be forced to leave my children in the pool unsupervised, I had much preferred leaving them with an air tank than without it.
The real risk in the pool is drowning after an hypoxic syncope, caused by freediving for too long. This risk is probably 10 times larger than having an accident with a scuba system.

I submit that if parents in general would not leave their 7 & 9 yr olds with scuba unsupervised, then there is a limit to how proficient we consider a 9 year old to be, despite the high level of skill they show.

I would not hesitate to walk away from two certified adults using scuba. Not a problem at all.

 

[Angelo Farina]

I submit that if parents in general would not leave their 7 & 9 yr olds with scuba unsupervised, then there is a limit to how proficient we consider a 9 year old to be, despite the high level of skill they show.

I would not hesitate to walk away from two certified adults using scuba. Not a problem at all.

I cannot evaluate the risks for other children or other parents, but I and my wife did evaluate the risks for our sons, and the result was that it was more dangerous allowing them to free dive (in the pool or in the sea, supervised or not) than giving them small air tanks. We see that most parents evaluate the opposite, and in fact we see that most children of 7-15 years do some sort of freediving, often with significant depth and dive time. And instead a small minority are trained to scuba diving.
My personal experience is that free diving is more dangerous both with parent supervision and without.
Of course supervision mitigates the risk, but free diving remains much more dangerous with or without supervision.

 

[Bob DBF]

Would you let your 7 & 9 year old children scuba underwater, even in a shallow pool, unsupervised?

Because if the answer is "no" (and I hope it is), then it shows that there is a limit to how proficient we consider a 9 year old to be.

No, but my concern would not necessarily be about proficiency, but more about the impulsive nature of children.