Children becoming certified in some countries before 12

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Rick Murchison:
The agencies are providing a structured, safe way to do what parents are free to do in the first place. If you feel "there ought to be a law" ... well, there are places...
Rick

I don't think there should be a law. I thionk agencies and dive centers should act responsibly voluntarily. While a parent can legally take their small child diving without any ones help or permission, should we encourage it? We can argue that they're safer with instruction than they would be without but you could say that about anything.

In this country, anyway, people get to decide these things for themselves. We also have strong marketers who don't always tell the truth and are happy to help one make up their mind too...buyer beware. Personally, I've seen a small child on a dive where his two VERY INEXPERIENCED parents ran into trouble and I doubt that little boy will ever forget what he saw. I know that I won't. Now...I don't care what those people do and they can't hurt me but I'll bet they were expecting nothing but fun and games. Also I'll bet those parents were not the type of people to go out and do such a thing on their own without first having a book, shop and instructor to help them get thinking that they were "qualified".

So for my part...absolutely let people do what they want but my question is are they being misled into wanting to do something that they wouldn't normally have wanted to do? Either way I don't have any say in it but I won't have anything to do with it either.
 
When I had a shop we had a customer who was a pro photographer and dived all over the world. He dived with us a couple times and the guy was a total menace. he approached me about teaching his young daughter and I tried to talk him into more training for himself. He said he would but never did. A few months later he approached me again and was extremely put out when I wouldn't take his daughter as a student.

A few months later I ran into him at lunch and he told me he had gotten her certified at some resort and he told me how great she did. He still didn't get it. I was never worried about whether or not the girl could learn to dive. I was worried about the fact that she was going to be diving with him! I can't stop it but I don't have to contribute to it.

As a certified diver she should be able to assess her buddy and the dive and make a go-nogo decision. Do you think shell decide her dad is a menace and refuse to dive with him? I know a bunch of other qualified divers who have.
 
MikeFerrara:
I don't think there should be a law. I thionk agencies and dive centers should act responsibly voluntarily. While a parent can legally take their small child diving without any ones help or permission, should we encourage it? We can argue that they're safer with instruction than they would be without but you could say that about anything.

In this country, anyway, people get to decide these things for themselves. We also have strong marketers who don't always tell the truth and are happy to help one make up their mind too...buyer beware. Personally, I've seen a small child on a dive where his two VERY INEXPERIENCED parents ran into trouble and I doubt that little boy will ever forget what he saw. I know that I won't. Now...I don't care what those people do and they can't hurt me but I'll bet they were expecting nothing but fun and games. Also I'll bet those parents were not the type of people to go out and do such a thing on their own without first having a book, shop and instructor to help them get thinking that they were "qualified".

So for my part...absolutely let people do what they want but my question is are they being misled into wanting to do something that they wouldn't normally have wanted to do? Either way I don't have any say in it but I won't have anything to do with it either.
Mike brings up some good points here. There is a fine line between providing a safe way to do what a parent and child want to do (and are going to do), and taking advantage of ignorance by encouraging what a parent or child shouldn't do.
As an instructor, to me the question becomes "Am I professional?" If I am then I have no qualms about telling a parent "your child isn't ready for this yet" or, just as often, "you aren't ready to be an underwater safety diver for your child yet." On the other hand, it is a very rare case indeed when I'd say "NO!" I would rather say "Here is what needs to happen before we can allow you and your child to dive together" and outline a program of training tailored to meet the goal of safe diving. That program may only delay them a little or may stretch until the child isn't a child anymore. (I should mention that there are cases where the parents aren't divers and don't expect to be divers - and hire an instructor/DM to dive with their child until he/she's 15)
Children & Scuba will always be a "hot button" because there are so many ways to abuse the system, parents are often deluded in their evaluation of their children's abilities, children assume the parent can always save them, and the children are the ones ultimately put in danger if we screw up. Training a child who isn't ready is bad. Training a child whose parents aren't ready is bad. Failing to train one who's going to dive is bad too.
Done right, diving can be a key part of a child's growth and facilitate strong family bonding in ways the average can never hope to achieve. Diving is one of only two or three things a teenager will do with his/her parents.
I also think age is pretty artificial as an iron-clad limiting factor. I've known 10 year olds far more capable than the average 16 year old, and 18 year olds far less capable than the average 10 year old. And so I believe training children must be on a case-by-case basis.
Bottom line: If it's done right and responsibly, I am all for children's Scuba training. If it's done wrong, I'm against it.
Keep the government out of it either way.
Rick
 
Rick Murchison:
At 12, they can get a regular Junior OW certification. They must dive with a certified adult and are restricted to 60'/18M.
At 15 they can get a regular Open Water certification.
For PADI Junior Open Water divers ages 12-15, the maximum depth is 70'.
 
WileEDiver:
For PADI Junior Open Water divers ages 12-15, the maximum depth is 70'.

The maximun allowable depth for a AOW training dive is 70 ft for that age group.
 
MikeFerrara:
As a certified diver she should be able to assess her buddy and the dive and make a go-nogo decision.
I say again, a Junior diver isn't a certified diver in the sense that he/she can make these kinds of decisions. That is why they are "Junior"; why they must dive with a certified adult or dive professional - they are children who dive, not divers who are young. It is akin to a learner's permit for driving. The learner can drive but must be under supervision precisely because the learner is not qualified to make sound driving decisions on their own.
The case you cite is a potential travesty; whoever trained and certified the child was wrong to do so, and irresponsible.
Heaping the issue of unqualified/unsatisfactorily trained/inadequately experienced/inept supervision from adult buddies on the junior diver question is a red herring of sorts, for these same unqualified/unsatisfactorily trained/inadequately experienced/inept adults are the real hazard... not the child.
And while I've never had a case where the adult involved was a complete disaster in the water, I have had those who need to learn how to be the super-buddy required to dive with a child... in those cases I have said "Sure, I can train y'all. Since you'll be responsible for her safety and part of her dive equipment, I want you to go through the class with her - at no additional charge of course." So far I haven't had anyone run off and get their child certified alone.
Rick
 
What Rick said.....

I have certified a few 10 and 11 year olds here in the states, I'm primarily a SSI Instructor. I request an interview with the child and parent before we sign them up. Then I want to see the parent dive. Then I decide if it's a safe venture or not. It is totally my call and the shop doesn't influence me at all.

I also had one 10 year old appear bright and alert but after the pool and academics I had him join the scuba rangers for much more experience before allowing them to go to open water. The 10 year old is still there.
 
MikeFerrara:
The maximun allowable depth for a AOW training dive is 70 ft for that age group.
Mike, didn't I say that? Unless you were referring specifically to AOW training dives, Which isn't the case. That's the maximum depth for any dives done by that diver (as stated on the JOW C-Card).
 
I certified both my kids at 13. My daughter never cared much for diving and I think she's only done one dive since her class and will probably never do another. My son dived with me every weekend for years. Very quickly he was as good in the water as any one I've ever seen and I've seen some good ones. Looking back on it he certainly wasn't the buddy he should have been. I was a cocky fairly new instructor and figured I could take up the slack. It worked out but at least part of that was luck. Eventually his buddy skills improved and now he's just flat out a good diver. however at 19 he still doesn't care to do much book work so he won't be going any further for a while. He want full cave but I told him that he has a lot of equipment to buy first. LOL so we'll see if he really wants it.

I don't believe there's a magic age and it's ability and maturity that need to be the deciding factors. Judging the supervisory situation is a little more touchy and some might say an instructor is over stepping their bounds by doing so. I think Rick's approach is sound and about the best an instructor can do short of drawing an arbitrary line in the sand.
 
WileEDiver:
For PADI Junior Open Water divers ages 12-15, the maximum depth is 70'.
Just went back & reviewed the SSI standards... the 40' is a "hard floor" for 10-11 year olds; the 60' is not a standard but rather falls as a "recommendation" for the 12 & over Junior OW.
Rick
 

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