Chasing paper? Or competence?

[rx7diver]

If I want specific training and don't need or want a card, I do it the old fashioned way and train myself.

What you're suggesting is that you want an instructor to teach you how to break the limits of your cert without the proper training to do so.

I've noticed what seems to me to be a bit of confusion about "certification limits" vs. "certification *training* limits." I (and probably you, too, Bob_DBF) was taught that "single-tank + wetsuit + similar environment + no-overhead + no-decompression + 130 fsw max depth" are recreational diving *training* limits, and that one needs to proceed cautiously (i.e., one needs to obtain more training--either formal training or informal training) as one begins exceeding these limits. No one ever suggested to me at that time that these recreational *training* limits could be exceeded only if one purchased another certification card, chased another piece of paper, to do so.

My SB proflie lists my formal training. It does not list my informal training. It does not show that I began diving doubles (mounted on a Scubapro Stab Jacket) without having obtained a--another--C-card to do so, that I began diving a drysuit without having obtained a--another--C-card to do so, that I began diving with a buddy bottle..., that I began (non-accelerated) deco diving..., that I began diving doubles + isolation manifold + wings without having obtained a--another--C-card to do so. Etc.

But, I didn't intend this thread to be about me, personally. The thread is more generally about whether a diver can acquire additional formal training (i.e., purchased from an instructor) a la carte, and the perceived associated pros/cons.

Safe Diving,

rx7diver

 

[BDSC]

Ought this diver be able to approach a (knowledgeable) instructor, ask to be taught this skill, negotiate a price, and be taught this skill? What do you think? Is it possible to do this? Should it be/not be? Upside/downside?

I think any two people should be able to come to an agreement and then carry it out. If you are willing to pay x amount to someone to be taught a certain skill and they are willing to teach you that for x amount, I have no problem with it whether it be scuba diving or whatever. Now maybe what they are teaching you has no cert/card but if you are OK with that and are just after the knowledge, then have at it.

Most of what I have learned over the years has been from folks who were vastly more experienced than myself and we have been doing "lite deco" off the coast of NC for years and have had no formal classes or training. (Now I'm not really sure what the definition for lite deco is but for the sake of my response, let's just say 5 minutes or less of deco.) Never had to pay for a course. Courses can certainly be a good thing but they are not always necessary depending on what you are trying to learn. I have been doing those dives with a steel 95 and have never had a problem. (knock on wood) Would I do a dive that required say 15 to 20 minutes of deco on a steel 95 only.....nope. But 5 minutes or less.....yep.....all day long.

Many of us dive off our coast with single tanks and no pony bottles and will creep into small amounts of deco. To me, it's not a big deal and here's why. I think the tables are generally pretty conservative. So if for some reason I had to blow off and miss a couple minutes of deco, I wouldn't be overly worried because I don't think the vast majority of folks would take a hit anyway. Even if a few folks did, most likely it would be very minor and probably require no treatment. Of course everyone is different and have to decide what risks they are willing to take whatever the circumstance. Now if I did find myself in this situation, I certainly wouldn't dive any more that day. Might even lean toward not diving the next day as well but if I felt fine/normal, just might.

That's my take on it.

 

[KD8NPB]

At 130 ft, you are consuming 2.5 cfm to 10 cfm depending on workload and SAC rate.

Meaning, under a current or under stress, at 130 ft, you have depleted 1/3 of an AL80 in 2.5 minutes. Meaning, in less than 10 minutes, you're out of gas.

With a 0.5 SAC rate under no duress, you would deplete 1/3 of an AL80 in 10 minutes. 30 minutes? No gas!

This is why a single tank is NOT the right tool for the job.

 

[victorzamora]

But I didn't intend this thread to be about me, personally. The thread is more generally about whether a diver can acquire additional formal training (i.e., purchased from an instructor) a la carte, and the perceived associated pros/cons.

I assumed you weren't talking about yourself, but a general suggestion. I've said it before in other threads: There are plenty of people that do light, unaccelerated deco in a relatively safe manner without any certifications "allowing" them to do so. I've also said before, and will continue to say, that certifications mean NOTHING. I've seen OW-only divers that look great, and I've seen Tec50/SM/DM/Drysuit/PPB divers that are AWFUL divers. A certification card is all about what you and your instructor put into the TRAINING aspects. Training can come in the form of mentorship or a formal class. A formal class, however, allows for liability protection and a more structured format. I'm not advocating either, simply stating that. It's a lot less risky for a dive shop to fill a set of doubles with hypoxic trimix if the diver shows a card proving it rather than log books (or their word). I know that Hypoxic Trimix is the furthest limit, but O2, EAN, etc can fall into the same category.

Now, as far as training limits vs cert limits....I know there are no scuba police (sanctioned, at least) telling you what you can and cannot do underwater, but I thought the CERT limits were clear for recreational certs. They all certify to dive within recreational limits, which is 130ft or shallower with no overhead within NDLs. Like, I know OW doesn't limit you to 60ft (as is the rumor), but I believe the recreational limits are what I mentioned above.

As far as a la carte style training/education, I believe there to be MANY more pros than cons from a purely transactional standpoint. I think the instructor gets to have the freedom to tailor the class to the student(s) to get the most advancement in the shortest time. My wife has good buoyancy and trim, but reacts poorly to losing her reg. Why should she have to do another class for further training? Why couldn't she get an instructor/mentor to just go over those drills? An instructor has the training and experience to conduct something like that safely, but we have no alternative to me just tearing her reg out of her mouth periodically. So, that's what we do. She's getting better. We recently bought her a drysuit. Think she's getting a card? Nope. You think I'll break her in to it slowly? Yup. Would a mentor with more experience than me help her more? Yup. I think that training for a drysuit, pony bottle, doubles, SM, photography, videography, buoyancy, DSMB deployment, lift bag deployment, gas planning/management, etc can all be done SAFELY and PROPERLY with a good mentor, outside the realm of a classroom and with no intentions of getting a C-card. Proper knowledge isn't obtained through a piece of plastic, but doors are opened with plastic. I believe all "ansilliary" training can be (and should be allowed to be) done outside of a formal class. I define "ansilliary" training as anything that helps sharpen your skills within your current certification limits, whether letter or spirit of the rules.

One thing to be said is: Coaching. I've specifically avoided the word in the rest of the post, but I think it's a great concept and a paradigm under which you could operate as an instructor without the heavy-handed repercussions. Scuba Coach Trace (Trace Malin) provides this service, and I'm VERY interested in taking him up on a day or two of his coaching.

 

[rhwestfall]

why did we split this off? This is going to be the same discussion.......

simply put, I say it is a cliff. The knowledge and skill set, along with the equipment of that next "leap" are significant as the requirements to keep you safe grow exponentially with diving in an overhead environment (deco ceiling or real overhead).

In our litigious society, there is little to no opportunity to "pick from the menu" the items you feel you need. Hence the above comments about formal training having to follow the established standards.

Yes, there may very well be things you can do on your own..... but are you right or just lucky? Are your sources of self learning accurate? Up to date?

True, some of the Classes/Cards are utter BS, but some are likely to save your bacon. You need to weed out the ones that are of value.....

 

[victorzamora]

Bob, I agree with that. I tried to clarify, but didn't emphasize, that the mentorship I'm in support of doesn't include the "leap" you're talking about. I think the training, mindset, and gear needed to dive safely into deco are a large, significant, and often underestimated leap and should not be taken lightly.

 

[rx7diver]

why did we split this off? This is going to be the same discussion.......

rhwestfall,

I was hoping we could concentrate here on the broader issue (a la carte training). But I'll leave it to the moderator. If he/she believes the threads should be combined, I have no problem with this.

Safe Diving,

rx7diver

 

[victorzamora]

So, can we add a caveat to the conversation that a la carte training, mentorship, coaching, etc, for the purpose of this conversation, should all be done within recreational limits? Or is your question specifically about going into an overhead environment (virtual or physical)?

 

[rhwestfall]

the problem is that one of the "a la carte" items under frequent consideration in these discussions is significant in terms of required knowledge & skills. Others could easily be achieved with a mentor in a non-certification role (quite frankly, there are numerous BS certifications). There is no broad based blanket statement regarding this.

 

[TSandM]

I think there are a lot of things people can learn by mentoring or even by studying. There is a LOT of information out there in various places. If you want to do staged decompression diving, you can study decompression theory, you can buy V-planner and put it on your laptop and run profiles and look at how things change. If you're halfway intelligent, you can come up with a variety of failures (lost bottom gas, lost deco gas, etc.) and figure out how to do the calculations. It's not hard to understand that someone holding a deco schedule has to be able to manage a lot of task-loading while accurately holding stops and keeping track of time. You and your buddies can go diving and hassle each other (says Lynne, remembering practicing an air-sharing ascent with her buddy and turning to look at him and discovering he had no mask . . . ) and debrief the results. Diving is not rocket science!

But you won't know where the holes in what you've put together for yourself are; and you won't really know if the strategies and solutions you've used when your buddies have thrown challenges at you were the right ones, or the best ones, because the only person evaluating them is you.

I think the recent deaths at Eagles Nest are a perfect example. These two had obviously figured a lot of things out quite nicely for themselves. They'd been doing some big dives for quite a while, without anyone having actually taught them how to do it. But there was a hole somewhere, and it killed them.

Taking a part of a curriculum which has been decided to be complete is simply ensuring that there will be those holes.