Change Dive Shop / Instructor?

[Tracy]

Anyone who says that their students are doing these skills hovering mid water in horizontal trim is totally full of it.
"Advanced" open water course is basically just a taster of what you can do in the future. Unless you take the optional buoyancy dive you wont really learn any new skills.

Thinking like this is why those poor instructors are still teaching that way. Many open water classes are doing all of their skills hovering. It may not be perfect, but they are neutral, not kneeling on the bottom.
Anybody teaching kneeling at this point is flat out doing it wrong.

 

[Brett Hatch]

My opinion is that if you are happy with your current instructor then stick with her.

People on this board get a bit carried away with their expectations of basic open water courses. You'll often hear people bagging on courses because you see students kneeling on the sand etc. The point is to teach basic skills to someone who has almost no diving experience. Clearing a flooded mask, finding your reg if you loose it, equalizing, breathing. Anyone who says that their students are doing these skills hovering mid water in horizontal trim is totally full of it.
"Advanced" open water course is basically just a taster of what you can do in the future. Unless you take the optional buoyancy dive you wont really learn any new skills.

My partner and I used a different instructor and we wished we'd been able to stick with our original. Makes no difference in the long run though.

Hard disagree that those instructors are full of it. There are several instructors on this board who claim to have taught OW mid-water and in good trim for years, and I have exactly zero reason to doubt them. Buoyancy and trim are very simple concepts, and should be easy to teach and learn with proper weighting.

Agree w/ the rest of the post though -- if the OP is learning quickly, feels safe, and communicates well with their instructor, then it sounds like it's going great. Once they're done with their OW course and get a few dives under their belt, they will be in a good position to try out a few different shops, talk to a few instructors, and make an informed evaluation.

 

[jlcnuke]

As a newbie, how am I to know for sure that my instructor is great or the best one to teach me? How would I know the difference if I have no comparison other than the internet? I can find multiple opinions on almost any topic on the internet.

You don't. It sucks, but that's the truth. Reviews, how well you get along with the instructor in person, and word of mouth/recommendations from others is all you can try and make a decision based on.

Next question(s). Does it make sense to take the OW test from one dive shop and the AOW from a different dive shop? Will I learn more because of working with different people and places? Will I get different advice on gear or skills?

Yes, imo it does (or at least a different instructor). Even if your 1st instructor was really good, a new instructor is going to provide you with a different experience (personality, etc.) and potentially some different points of view. This is one great way to learn in my experience - and one of the best ways to learn if a previous instructor you had maybe wasn't as great as you thought they were.

How do I know that I am getting the best instruction available?

Hindsight.... cost doesn't always equate to good or bad instruction, reviews can be wrong, the instructor can have an off-day, etc.
You can generally tell "terrible" instruction (I had an instructor for a specialty tell me 'I can't teach you anything' after dive 1 of a multi-dive specialty once for instance) during the course, but anything short of that you'll figure out later on.

Are there compelling reasons to use different dive shops and instructors if I am happy with the one I am currently working with?

I think there are. Different instructors have different experience to draw from. They have different teaching styles. They have different opinions. They may have different ways of doing the same thing. Getting exposed to those varied opinions, methods, etc. make you a more informed diver and helps you to figure out what your opinions, methods, styles will be moving forward.

I have received training/certifications from 10 different instructors, 8 "shops", and 5 different agencies and I think the exposure to the different people, agencies, and locations for that training helped to make me a better, more informed diver.

 

[TMHeimer]

I was lucky in that the shop here had (has) about 15 instructors, all pretty good or very good (IMO), having assisted most of them. I took OW here and AOW (and some other courses) on the FL panhandle. Again, the instructor was fine. For me and a lot of people it's more a matter of timing-- such as when a course is offered. I took EFR (CPR) in New Jersey because it wasn't offered when I wanted it here and is a prerequisite for Recsue. The shop here said I could do the Rescue course here and then EFR after that when it is offered here, then get the Rescue Cert. But, I happened to be in the NY area, so did it in NJ.
Folks like to advise you to shop around and interview shops/instructors when looking to take a course. That's fine if there are several shops around to choose from.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I love my instructor and believe she is doing a great job. I have learned a lot. I have also read a number of posts here where the response starts with "If you had a better instructor..." As a newbie, how am I to know for sure that my instructor is great or the best one to teach me? How would I know the difference if I have no comparison other than the internet? I can find multiple opinions on almost any topic on the internet.

There is no "best one" for any of us. If you like your instructor and feel you have learned a lot, that says a lot. You could have done worse (and still learned to dive). You WILL learn to dive from this instructor, and if you continue with diving you may work with other instructors, and only then will you be able to say to yourself which of them you felt you got the most out of. You may even get some memorabe nugget from each of them that you wouldn't have gotten from the others.

 

[boulderjohn]

Clearing a flooded mask, finding your reg if you loose it, equalizing, breathing. Anyone who says that their students are doing these skills hovering mid water in horizontal trim is totally full of it.

Well, I would have to say that you are totally full of it. People have been doing it that way for more than a decade. Many of the big IDC operations around the world are only teaching it that way now.

In many cases, dive #1, when students do the most basic skills in very shallow water, are done with the legs lightly touching the floor. The diver is still neutrally buoyant and in horizontal trim, but there is floor contact. That is the way I did those skills when I posed for the PADI pictures for their article on this 11 years ago. The later skills were done in mid water.

The difference between students taught anchored on the knees and students taught neutrally and horizontal is night and day. Students taught while neutrally buoyant are learning to control their buoyancy and trim throughout the class, even while they are watching other students perform skills. By the end of the pool sessions, they look like experienced divers, and it all takes no more time than plopped down on the knees.

Here is another point. When you learn on the knees, your body is vertical, unlike the way you dive. The key early skills, including regulator recovery, mask clearing, and alternate air breathing, are all done differently if the body is vertical. The first time you teach a class and see it, you will stunned by the revelation of the difference.

 

[Alaskan Scuba Dude]

Novice divers seldom learn more than the cue card allows. If you believe you are making progress, why would you have doubts? I am an advocate of divers using different instructors. This is the only way you can make comparisons. Ask your current instructor for their opinions on configurations and equipment selection. Complete your AOW course with a different instructor when on vacation.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I have a question and a follow-up question. I love my instructor and believe she is doing a great job. I have learned a lot. I have also read a number of posts here where the response starts with "If you had a better instructor..." As a newbie, how am I to know for sure that my instructor is great or the best one to teach me? How would I know the difference if I have no comparison other than the internet? I can find multiple opinions on almost any topic on the internet.

That's really a tough question to address. Often people will recommend instructors who are entertaining/funny or they have some loyalty towards. Recommendations without the question "why?" being answered are not very valuable.

For example, while I am an instructor, I will have my wife and daughter trained by Ryan @custureri in Fort Lauderdale. Now why? Besides the obvious that I don't want a divorce (when I was a ski patroller and we saw couples where one was teaching the other DIPs - divorce in progress) and my daughter has me wrapped around her finger, and I want her to listen carefully for the entire program.

I recommend Ryan because he teaches neutrally buoyant and trimmed (no on the knees instruction ever). He understands/teaches body mechanics far better than probably anyone, he is attentive to his students needs, addresses psychological obstacles, and very detail oriented.

Now I could say "Ryan is a great instructor", but does that tell you anything useful? Why would you listen to a bickering curmudgeon like myself as compared to someone with a more pleasant personality?

The problem with getting recommendations from people who have been diving for years would be the instructor might no longer be at the dive shop. Maybe they have additional duties now and do not have the time to spend that they used to have. Maybe they are going through a rough patch or a great time in their life and are not focused right now.

Next question(s). Does it make sense to take the OW test from one dive shop and the AOW from a different dive shop? Will I learn more because of working with different people and places? Will I get different advice on gear or skills?

It all depends on if you find instructors of high quality. I'd have as much training for my wife and daughter to be conducted by Ryan. Sure I could go to other dive centers, but some of them I know for certain teach nowhere near to his level. I can't speak for all shops, so you have to flush them out.

One advantage might be getting to know more people who frequent or work at different shops. Because the shops will be close proximity, they will probably dive the same areas.

I don't see this as a plus. You are better off joining dive clubs to find dive buddies

I am happy with the dive shop and instructor I am working with to get my OW. I am learning and enjoying my experience. I would not go to a different shop because of that.

How do I know that I am getting the best instruction available?
Are there compelling reasons to use different dive shops and instructors if I am happy with the one I am currently working with?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You'll often hear people bagging on courses because you see students kneeling on the sand etc.

My favorite quote on this is "If you teach on the knees, not only are you a sh!tty instructor, but a failure as a human being." I didn't realize I had a long lost twin.

The point is to teach basic skills to someone who has almost no diving experience. Clearing a flooded mask, finding your reg if you loose it, equalizing, breathing. Anyone who says that their students are doing these skills hovering mid water in horizontal trim is totally full of it.

I've been doing it for years and I describe how I do it through the blog posts below. Obviously SDI doesn't think I'm full of it or they wouldn't publish it. Surely you've heard of Mark Powell, right? Some of his comments that I've read on Facebook over the years helped me achieve that. He's been doing it for a long time. I'd say the rule for most RAID instructors is that they do so as well.

Teaching Neutrally Buoyant and Trimmed - International Training - SDI | TDI | ERDI | PFI

Teaching Neutrally Buoyant and Trimmed: Pt2 - Mask, Snorkel & Fin Skills - International Training - SDI | TDI | ERDI | PFI

Teaching Neutrally Buoyant and Trimmed: How to weight properly, Part 3 - International Training - SDI | TDI | ERDI | PFI

 

[boulderjohn]

The primary reason old school instructors refuse to oven try to teach students while neutrally buoyant is their clearly stated assumption that it is adding an unnecessary layer of difficulty to the teaching of basic skills. When those people give it a try, their biggest shock is when they see that many of the skills are easier for the students to do that way. That is why many instructors actually find their classes going faster than normal. In reality, being overweighted and kneeling is adding an unnecessary layer of difficulty to the skills.