Certification Training Differences - Holy War?

[Ferrara]

I am a PADI instructor and an IANTD instructor. Most of the larger agencies are members of the Recreational Scuba Training Council or CMAS. The training standards of all these agencies are very similar. However, a lot of cheating goes on. I could write a book on some of the hideous things I see. It is, unfortunately, possible to purchase a certification. There are market and economic factors that pressure dive centers and instructors to shorten classes and take shortcuts. Some of the pressure comes from the customer. Many people want fast and cheap. These days, the name of the game seems to be VOLUME. We must sell all the pretty colored junk in the store and fill all the resorts. Thorough training takes time, money and dedication on everyone's part. Among the worst things I see are instructors who don't dive any better than their students. I see it ALL THE TIME. I am still continuing my education and have come across instructors (for very advanced courses) who I would not want for students. And by the way, PADI requires four open water dives (minimum) in the OW course. Between dives you must leave the water and doff equipment. Dive one is just a tour - NO SKILLS are to be performed. Some skills can be completed on dive 2, 3 or 4. Other skills must be completed on a specific dive. These skills cannot be moved from one dive to another. Each dive must include a tour (for experience). Each dive must be at least twenty minutes with the majority of the time spent at or below 15 feet.

My advice…. the philosophy of the instructor makes all the difference. Unfortunately it can be hard for a new diver to distinguish the good from the bad. I have spoken to new divers who were subjected to dangerous violations of training standards and never knew it. I invite prospective new students to visit one of my classes and compare it to others before signing up. Sorry if this was too much gloom and doom.
Good luck and good diving….

 

[Ontario Diver]

Thanks Ferrara; (oh and by the way, welcome to the board. I hope that we see alot more of you.)

One of the problems that a new diver runs into (me being one) is that we don't know what is safe and not safe. One of my early instructors (with over 200 dive) dove exactly 8 times below 80 ft, and was trying to teach me when my goal was wreck diving.

I have also seen students being told to stay on the bottom while the instructor does a CESA with a more advanced student. The CESA was also 10 ft deeper than the requirement (I made it anyway and didn't realize what was going on.)

And the last point - Even really good instructors sometimes screw up, but they should never put students at risk. A good relationship with a good instructor is awesome. I'm glad that for me they have been the rule rather than the exception.

 

[watergal]

Agreed, the most important difference is the instructor. Several of my buddies teach up there and I would be happy to give you the inside scoop on the local shops and several of the instructors.

 

[BILLB]

NAUI is not a member of the RTSC. I am a NAUI instructor. There are many reasons for this but the one that comes to mind I believe is important is that NAUI will not allow OW certification for children under 12 years of age. From 12 to 16 OW certification is a Junior card and must dive with a certified diver over 18. 60 foot limit!

Naui and the YMCA are the only two agencies that are non-profit. YMCA in my opinion has dropped the ball when it comes to organization. However, it allows the Instructors great latitude. I know of several YMCA Instructors who are second to none. NAUI also allows latitute but all NAUI minimum requirements must be meet.

Naui will enter the dive for profit market in the near future with an organization that will compete with all the other for profit agencies. The one catch is the Naui non profit will still write the rules.

Since NAUI as I know it today has organized all Scuba training to standardsthat are up to date and viable. Naui is also runned by a democratically elected Board of Directors. Check out WWW.NAUI.ORG and check out some of the names. Many are the best in the SCUBA industry.

My NAUI course is 10 weeks. 30 hours classroom and 25 to 30 hours in the pool. You will be taught the rules, Tables, skills and phyics.

Its the Instructor who makes the course work for you. Unfortunately most instructors work for shops that must put fannies in the water so they will buy equipment and trips. Some do it very professionally. Others do it to the absolute minimum and then cut corners.

BY the way, two dives for OW certification may be legal for many agencies. If the instructor believes the student has mastered all the skills then two can do it. However, if that student turned diver is found floating on later dives they may have to answer some very tough questions.

 

[Walter]

Bill, excellent points, but I believe you may have unintentionally mislead folks with the statement, "it allows the Instructors great latitude. I know of several YMCA Instructors who are second to none. NAUI also allows latitute but all NAUI minimum requirements must be meet." I know you understand that within YMCA latitude to instructors those instructors must also meet YMCA minimum requirements which are some of the highest in the industry. Others might have misunderstood you to mean Y instructors don't have to meet minimum standards, which you and I know is not the case.

Why do you think YMCA has dropped the ball in organization?

I also think you are incorrect in why NAUI dropped out of the RTSC. To the best of my knowledge, only two agencies allow certification of children younger than 12. YMCA minimum age is still 12 yet we remain a member.

DSSW,

WWW™

 

[Arduous]

I am in agreement with most of this thread. The instructor is of paramount importance, indiscriminant of the dive system. A good instructor will turn out good divers. I know an instructor who had a young person who was having difficulties with certain required skills. This instructor took this new diver on a total of 7 dives at no extra cost, until this person was comfortable performing all the required skills in open water. This is guy was a true instructor, a good teacher and a great dive buddy.

Dive Safe …………………..Arduous

 

[BILLB]

Originally posted by Walter
Bill, excellent points, but I believe you may have unintentionally mislead folks with the statement, "it allows the Instructors great latitude. I know of several YMCA Instructors who are second to none. NAUI also allows latitute but all NAUI minimum requirements must be meet." I know you understand that within YMCA latitude to instructors those instructors must also meet YMCA minimum requirements which are some of the highest in the industry. Others might have misunderstood you to mean Y instructors don't have to meet minimum standards, which you and I know is not the case.

OOPS! You are so correct. Any instructor should be teaching and meeting minimum requirements.

Why do you think YMCA has dropped the ball in organization?

Training materials. The YMCA Instructor I am close to simply does not have the aids that other agencies has available. The organization as far as I know is top notch.

I also think you are incorrect in why NAUI dropped out of the RTSC. To the best of my knowledge, only two agencies allow certification of children younger than 12. YMCA minimum age is still 12 yet we remain a member.

NAUI simply does not want outsiders to dictate what their standards must be. This sounds arrogant but NAUI holds to tyhe position that their STANDARDS are pretty good without the RSTC.

DSSW,

WWW™

 

[Walter]

"NAUI simply does not want outsiders to dictate what their standards must be. This sounds arrogant but NAUI holds to tyhe position that their STANDARDS are pretty good without the RSTC."

NAUI has always had excellent standards. NAUI helped to write the minimum standards for the industry, along with 4 other agencies, before there was an RSTC. The RSTC does not dictate what an agency's standards must be. They do set minimums, any agency is free to exceed those minimums. I've always had a great deal of respect for NAUI, but with the recent lowering of swimming requirements I'm wondering if other standards are also about to be lowered. I hope this is merely a temporary change and the standards will be quickly raised again. It seems many, many NAUI instructors are upset over this change and, IMHO, rightly so.

DSSW,

WWW™

 

[Campana]

"two dives (they called it four dives, but they actually made it all into two"--Weezle.

Weezle, I'm a PADI Divemaster. They require 4 dives. Some instructors complete Dive 1 and then don't get out of the water, completing a surface interval of a few minutes on the surface, possibly even at the float. They start and finish Dive #2, then get out. Then they stay in the water for Dives #3 and #4. Then you're finished. Those dives should be spread over two days. You don't have to do two each day, you can do one on the first day and three on the second. Or, you can do three on the first and one on the second. Since PADI instructors are allowed to change the order of skills, Dive #4 could really be a tour, since you may have finished all your skills.

I really think they should split them evenly into two days, with a surface interval between 1 and 2 and then go home, then a surface interval between 3 and 4 the next day, but they don't have to do it that way.

Everyone is correct that the instructor is most important. I would like to point out that the student is just as important. Students that listen, ask to repeat skills that are tough for them, and make an effort to be as independent as possible, not depending on the Instructor and DM to assist them any more than they need, and above all, get in some easy dives after their classes. I am perfectly willing to meet newly certified divers on the next weekend to help them a bit. Those extra 4 or 5 dives BEFORE they head to Cozumel makes all the difference in the world when they get there.

 

[Drew Sailbum]

In my earlier post, I in no way intended to say that the RSTC dictates what the standards must be for open water training. Nor did I say that NAUI is a part of the RSTC .

The RSTC provides a needed level of legal protection for the scuba industry. In virtually any lawsuit involving a scuba accident, the "generally accepted standards" of the industry (whatever the hell that really means) can come into question.

Usually there is an allegation of some deficiency in training. Such an arguement may be countered by demonstrating that the training conformed to the accepted standards of the industry as a whole.

The RSTC ostensibly sets minimum acceptable standards for the industry, and thus acts as a convenient way to determine, for legal purposes, what the industry acceptable standards are.

By ensuring that their standards meet or exceed the standards put forth by the RSTC, each training agency gains some legal protection.

Now as to whether one agency is better than another... It depends upon what you want to get out of your diving. If you only want to dive to 30ft in crystal clear, 80 degree water - it doesn't really matter. Every agency's beginning course will prepare you for that.

If you want to explore underwater caves at depths of 200ft, in 50 degree water, with your closed circuit rebreather - it is a different story. You will need extensive training, possibly through multiple agencies to be prepared for the challenges involved.


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