CCR & OC mixed teams for OW Recreational Diving? Good idea or not?

[tstormdiver]

Hopefully, soon I will have my No- Decompression Air Diluent CCR Ceretification. I have several of my OC buddies who have said they will dive with me (them OC, me CCR) at the local quarry, once I am sertified. These divers are cave diving buddies of mine & are well versed in the use of their equipment. They have plenty of redundancy for themselves & buddies. I myself will be carrying 2 AL 40's for bailout & eventually going to AL 80's for such, when I start CCR cave. The only local CCR divers in the area are my instructor & another buddy who went CCR before I did. I am wanting to log many as (quality) hours on the unit, after my certification, as I can to prep for CCR Cave. What are some considerations/ concerns of mixed OC & CCR in OW within recreational limits? So far, I have only dove my unit with my instructor & the other CCR buddy of mine. Thanks for any information.:blinking:

 

[TSandM]

For simple open water dives, I think the only issues are that you have to explain to the OC diver how you are going to supply them with gas if they need it, and they need to understand what your bailout is -- and you both need to agree that if there are any questions about how you are behaving, bailout is the answer.

I've done a few dives with CCR buddies. Although I ask them about their readouts and whether they have a heads-up display, after all the reading and playing I've done, I decided all I really need to know is how they bail out. ANYTHING I don't like about the dive, and that's what they are going to do

 

[PsyWulf]

Bubblechecks,Bailouts and air donation,emergency procedures
Should cover the essentials,and you need to be aware of their deco obligations

 

[Mr.X]

The main issue will be cleaning out the loop when your cave buddies want to try it for a shallow water spin.

Seriously, as folks have mentioned bailout, emergency procedures etc. Have fun!

I also remembered you had a scooter? If you get a chance to play - should be interesting given the differences between a sleeker OC diver and CCR (bulkier) equipped diver.

 

[tphelps]

Hopefully, soon I will have my No- Decompression Air Diluent CCR Ceretification. I have several of my OC buddies who have said they will dive with me (them OC, me CCR) at the local quarry, once I am sertified. These divers are cave diving buddies of mine & are well versed in the use of their equipment. They have plenty of redundancy for themselves & buddies. I myself will be carrying 2 AL 40's for bailout & eventually going to AL 80's for such, when I start CCR cave. The only local CCR divers in the area are my instructor & another buddy who went CCR before I did. I am wanting to log many as (quality) hours on the unit, after my certification, as I can to prep for CCR Cave. What are some considerations/ concerns of mixed OC & CCR in OW within recreational limits? So far, I have only dove my unit with my instructor & the other CCR buddy of mine. Thanks for any information.:blinking:

Aloha Tammy! Out of curiosity, why dive with 2 bailouts? Trim? Once you get your Air Dil cert then you are only allowed to go to about 100 feet (depends on what agency too). Depending on your SAC rate, it is an easy calculation how much gas you need to get to the surface with your buddy. Pretty sure you will not need 80cf. I bring stage 1 AL40 for my bailout and that is more than enough gas that I need for the two of us.

OC and CCR dive teams are more common than you would think. The important thing is just giving your buddy a through briefing on CCRs and how to help you should you need it. I get to cheat here because I know you dive the Prism2 like me . I would start out by a brief orientation on how CCRs work, gas flow, CLs, etc. This just helps them get a better understanding and appreciation for what we do as CC divers. If you have a BOV on yours, explain that if you went to bailout then you need to ascend right away because you dont have that large of a gas supply. Explain out of air procedures if they have a problem, i.e. "just pull this regulator off of my off board bailout, it will be all the way on the entire dive. etc..." You should also explain what happens if the "**** hits the fan" and you become unconscious. Explain how to close the look and how important it is. Not only to salvage the electronics but to control buoyancy. Tell them how to work the OPV on the right counter lung so they can vent gas. You can show them the procedure of how to bring you up - one way is them to go behind your back left hand on your LPI and right hand keeping the loop in place. If the loop is out of your mouth, they should not worry about it. One your predive checks, you can talk your way of how they can remove the unit quickly. "I have 1 sternum strap across my chest, 1 waist strap and crotch strap, counter lung straps, etc." And before you hop in the water, explain that he/she is going to do a bubble check for you and that they should also take notice if something starts bubbling during the dive. You can explain your primary and secondary displays and what the colors mean if you want to.

A lot of stuff right? lol you dont need to give them a full course but emergency procedures are the big points. At the end of the day, you get to laugh and point fingers when they reach their turn pressure while you still have hours left .

 

[Doppler]

Aloha Tammy! Out of curiosity, why dive with 2 bailouts?

Hey, Tyler: Usually for redundancy in an overhead... since Tammy is prepping for cave CCR, I am pretty sure her instructor has drilled her repeatedly with the "redundant OC bailout mantra."

Already a bunch of great advice Tammy. Have fun.

 

[HIGHwing]

This is an interesting topic. Having been in your position, there are a few things I might be able to suggest that will help guide your journey.

Establish hand-signals for the observation of little bubbles, and big bubbles. Often unfamiliar divers expect CCRs to be completely bubble-free and it's confusing. Which may require explaining your mask clear, dil flush, and ascent procedure in advance.

Explain you want to be at pretty much constant depths and would prefer to "go-around" versus "go-over" so you're not constantly resetting your buoyancy and wasting gas. No need for the OC guys to follow your route, just tell them you're trying to keep gas bills to a minimum.

Consider the OC versus CCR divers positioning in the water. My group traditionally puts the CCR divers in front of the pack for two complimentary reasons. Maintaining buddy contact for the CCR divers is quite easy as you can hear each OC diver breathing behind us, and the OC divers can keep visual contact on the CCR divers. Placing the CCR divers in the back means the CCR diver theoretically could disappear more easily.

All these bailout bottles you describe are good, but if you can accomplish the dive with a single bailout, do it. One of the first things I did as a new air diluent diver was figure out six ways I could get to breathable gas. Spend your energy on fewer choices, less weight, less gear to work through cognitively in an emergency. You should have an infallible way to get to known good gas that always works. The technical rebreathers give you a half-dozen ways to breathe off them in various states of failure. You should only need more bailout for penetration/owed deco (which appears where you are headed.)

Others mentioned air share practice, but I noticed it has always worked out better to let the OC guys solve OC problems and CCR divers solve CCR problems . In theory, if you have adequate bailout to reach the surface, you have all the gas you need. By definition you are self-sufficient even if something goes boom, or the loop catastrophically tears or floods. It's not that I don't care about the OC guys, or that I'm suggesting you shouldn't plan to ultimately help each other. What I'm saying is, I've found that it's best to assign buddies within the team based on similar skill sets. The exception is a CCR diver in a state of altered consciousness.

Diving in mixed teams usually brings a lot of gas and bottles to the dive site, make sure there is an analysis procedure and the protocols are followed. It's extremely easy (for some reason I haven't yet discovered) to accidentally swap dil bottles, or grab the wrong 40. Consider an edict requiring all CCR divers to use the same diluent, and all divers to use compatible (same) gases for bailout/deco. Though admittedly at the Air-dil level this might not be a significant issue as everyone could simply run Air dil, and a bailout of air if you're really trying to simplify it.

You should be practicing a bailout on each dive with a CCR. I have found the best time to do this is at the bottom of the descent. My dive team now expects to see me bailout and I get to practice a skill without causing concern. In addition, it tests my bailout capability, charges a breath in the hose, and may help keep water out of the regs if that is a concern.

Establish a signal for "I need to make an adjustment to my rebreather and I'm in control". I've had a time or two where I wanted a Dil Flush as my Po2 was slightly hot and didn't want to do it because it might cause people to rush over and rescue me. So you'll want to work those details out in advance.

Mind your PPN2. Whether you acknowledge it or not, the technical CCR is a bit more demanding underwater during times of abnormal operation. When I transitioned, I felt narcosis was a far bigger factor on CCR than OC and immediately began using 21/35 as my "air" dil replacement gas. It's not much more expensive than air, it's easy to mix (1000psi of He, top with premix 32% to 3,000psi) and you benefit from a reduced END for up to several hours on for a couple dollars. ...And you'll be logging Trimix dives if that matter to you.

Good pre-breathes, Always bring a bailout, and never enter the water with any known fault.

Best of luck.

 

[tstormdiver]

Aloha Tammy! Out of curiosity, why dive with 2 bailouts? Trim? Once you get your Air Dil cert then you are only allowed to go to about 100 feet (depends on what agency too). Depending on your SAC rate, it is an easy calculation how much gas you need to get to the surface with your buddy. Pretty sure you will not need 80cf. I bring stage 1 AL40 for my bailout and that is more than enough gas that I need for the two of us.

I plan for 2 bailouts for 2 reasons: 1. just plain & simple practice for carrying 2 when I begin my CCR Cave, better to get used to it early on in a friendly environment & 2. 1 bailout for me & 1 (God forbid) for them, if the need should arise at the same time. I have 7 ft hoses on them so deployment shouldn't be an issue, we are all familiar with it. I also have my drysuit inflator hooked up to the left bailout.

OC and CCR dive teams are more common than you would think. The important thing is just giving your buddy a through briefing on CCRs and how to help you should you need it. I get to cheat here because I know you dive the Prism2 like me . I would start out by a brief orientation on how CCRs work, gas flow, CLs, etc. This just helps them get a better understanding and appreciation for what we do as CC divers. If you have a BOV on yours, explain that if you went to bailout then you need to ascend right away because you dont have that large of a gas supply.

Excellent points! NO BOV on my unit (yet). Off board bailouts only, at this point.

Explain out of air procedures if they have a problem, i.e. "just pull this regulator off of my off board bailout, it will be all the way on the entire dive. etc..." You should also explain what happens if the "**** hits the fan" and you become unconscious. Explain how to close the look and how important it is. Not only to salvage the electronics but to control buoyancy. Tell them how to work the OPV on the right counter lung so they can vent gas. You can show them the procedure of how to bring you up - one way is them to go behind your back left hand on your LPI and right hand keeping the loop in place. If the loop is out of your mouth, they should not worry about it. One your predive checks, you can talk your way of how they can remove the unit quickly. "I have 1 sternum strap across my chest, 1 waist strap and crotch strap, counter lung straps, etc."

You mean there's a quick way???? LOL! Sounds just like my set up... other than my counterlung set- up is using bungee & snap bolts through the crotch strap to hold the CL's down instead of the factory straps.

And before you hop in the water, explain that he/she is going to do a bubble check for you and that they should also take notice if something starts bubbling during the dive. You can explain your primary and secondary displays and what the colors mean if you want to.

Once again good thinking.

A lot of stuff right? lol you dont need to give them a full course but emergency procedures are the big points. At the end of the day, you get to laugh and point fingers when they reach their turn pressure while you still have hours left .

Excellent point!

---------- Post added September 5th, 2013 at 06:51 AM ----------

I also remembered you had a scooter? If you get a chance to play - should be interesting given the differences between a sleeker OC diver and CCR (bulkier) equipped diver.

Yes,... Why yes I do! Not going to use it for a little while. No need in over task loading at this point,... All in due time.

---------- Post added September 5th, 2013 at 06:57 AM ----------

Should cover the essentials,and you need to be aware of their deco obligations

Thank you! I realize that they will likely reach deco before I would (one of the great things about CCR!). I have hung in deco with these guys many times, so it is communications of one's obligations is not an issue. I WILL NOT ever leave a buddy on deco, unless it is a matter of life & death,... They are of the same thoughts (same instructor).

---------- Post added September 5th, 2013 at 06:59 AM ----------

The main issue will be cleaning out the loop when your cave buddies want to try it for a shallow water spin.

If that is the case,... then I will refer them to my instructor (also their technical instructor). I am not a CCR instructor,... & will be a long time before I reach that point of profiecency. Most likely they would be using my unit anyway, since mine is the closest & most readily available for use in such cases.

 

[Mr.X]

Cheers. Sometimes I forget that I am a retired CCR instructor - which makes buddies having a go on a unit a lot easier. And yes - using a scooter is task loading for someone starting out on these machines. If anything, maybe your pals can film video of you using your unit. It would be cool to see the latest iteration of the PRISM.

 

[vancouverdiver]

To hi jack the ops thread a bit, CCR & OC divers for tec diving. Not ideal, but is it a bad idea? If you are an OC tec diver, would you do a tec dive with a CCR diver where you have a lot of experience diving with the CCR diver as an OC tec dive team? Ultimately, it is up to the confidence and trust in each team member, but I'm curious how common/uncommon is this.