Cavern diver certification

[knfmn]

Good for you, Kristopher!

I believe that training is always good for a diver, and it is good to train with different agencies to see what you do and don't like about them. SB is full of opinions that suit the opinion-holder, but may not suit you. On SB there is a race to be the first to say "it is all about the instructor, not the agency" (which is to some degree true), but the agency colours the instructor, and the instructors colour the agency.

Personally, I did Cavern (NACD) knowing that, because of where I live, I will never get enough experience and regular practice in caves to be a competent cave diver. Hence I would likely not pass full cave, and if I did, if I would not want to penetrate a cave with me as a buddy, I should not inflict "me" upon others. To me, Cavern was a means to learn new things that I would not be able to follow up on. You know what? It was quite likely the best course that I ever took in my life!

Enjoy!

I'm pretty much where you are right now. I live in Northern Massachusetts. There are almost no caves here, and to the best of my knowledge, none that can be dove. I don't get to cave country often enough to maintain the edge on the necessary skills
to "safely" dive in caves. That might change if my wife and I move away from here, which is always a topic of conversation. I just feel that the Cavern cert is one which will teach me some good, transferable skills and also allow me to take a peek in this magic world that others get to travel into.

Kristopher

 

[TSandM]

Kristopher, you'll have a ball, and your belief that the class will teach you things that are useful is quite correct.

To the others, I do believe (and I hope she will correct me if I am wrong) that Fiona did guided cavern tours, and not random cavern diving -- AND she has some training beyond the average OW diver as well. I do think her advice is bad -- the average OW diver should NOT "poke around" in caverns without training or supervision. I can think, offhand, of at least three caverns in MX that could easily be death traps to anyone who got lost (who was not running line, or silted out the area) because of their size and the complexity of the structure. Carwash is a perfect example, because it would be extremely easy to get into an area of decorations where it might be difficult to find the light behind you, even though you were still technically in the cavern zone, and there is no permanent line there.

If you have been relentlessly schooled in pinpoint buoyancy, non-silting propulsion, team awareness and the proper use of lights, and line work, you will probably survive and enjoy "poking around in caverns". But basically, anyone with a Fundies tech pass has taken most of a cavern class, except the lost line, lost buddy, and lights out drills.

 

[CamG]

The Cavern / Cave environment is an overhead environment that dictates training and or instruction on the techniques / rules to dive them safely.
Just because one had tech experience in the OW environment does not mean you should assume you will be ok in an overhead environment.

The guided dives topic is a very divided topic amongst agencies and cave divers.
I am not weghing in other than to say I believe in diving within ones training and experience level.
I have been on guided cavern dives in MX and I have to say after obtaining the proper training they are OVERHEAD environments!
Can you dive them and get back alive, sure but WHAT IF? Those are not covered in the 30 min. brief.

I found that cave diving has become very dear to me so I to feel the pain of untrained divers meeting an untimely end.
It causes waves of grief that so many people work constantly to protect access to the caves here in the US.
Just this past year with budget cuts, and other looming law suits have threatened the treasure of our underwater caves.

What many our trying to say is simply obtain the training and enjoy the cave environment!
Dive within your training / experience and conservatively.
Dive safe and protect the environment we all love.

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

 

[KMD]

dead idiots in our caverns makes us look bad. mexico is best for you

eah, that makes perfect sense.


Do me a favor and do it in MX, so you're retarted ass doesn't get a cave closed down in the US.

The hell with that! Stay in Florida and close down their hillbilly caves not the beautiful caves down in Mexico.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

To the others, I do believe (and I hope she will correct me if I am wrong) that Fiona did guided cavern tours, and not random cavern diving -- AND she has some training beyond the average OW diver as well. I do think her advice is bad -- the average OW diver should NOT "poke around" in caverns without training or supervision.

If you have been relentlessly schooled in pinpoint buoyancy, non-silting propulsion, team awareness and the proper use of lights, and line work, you will probably survive and enjoy "poking around in caverns". But basically, anyone with a Fundies tech pass has taken most of a cavern class, except the lost line, lost buddy, and lights out drills.

Lynne,

Your posts usually ring full of many truths, but this one might actually border on farm-animal stupid given your training and experience. I'm saying it this way to make you laugh when you rethink your defense.

A GUE-F student gets MOST of the cavern class that is about preventing silt-outs, but not what happens when you are in a silt-out and need MOST of the OTHER stuff you mentioned such as lost line, lost buddy, lost lights.

During a search for ancient Lucayan Indian remains for a BBC project in the Bahamas, my buddy and I "disrespected" the cavern zone we emerged into from a traverse. We had time pressure to complete the mission and we split the team to cover more ground. Eventually, we ventured "just a couple of body lengths" into the cave zone without a continuous guideline and found ourselves lost in a total silt-out.

Percolation from air bubbles caused bacterial sediments on the ceiling to rain darkness down upon us. Two cave instructors with trim, buoyancy, and propulsion and demonstration quality lost line, lost buddy, lights-out, etc., skills had their heart rates up believe you me!

We needed every bit of our training and practice to find our way out and reunite. A few thankful breaths to the Almighty God later, we resumed the search and completed our mission. My buddy located the remains just as I reached "Bingo Fuel" on the SPG.

DIR divers without proper cavern or cave training have just as much risk of death as "the average OW diver" and the "above average OW scuba instructor" and the "best technical divers" who don't possess cave training.

The first rule of The 5 Rules of Accident Analysis:

1. Be trained for cavern and cave diving and don't exceed the limits of your training!

To believe an untrained DIR diver is safe in an overhead environment smacks of the same arrogance as open water scuba instructors being good enough to go into caves. They didn't know what they didn't know either.

Talk about disrespecting a cavern or cave!

 

[Dive-aholic]

But basically, anyone with a Fundies tech pass has taken most of a cavern class, except the lost line, lost buddy, and lights out drills.

Cavern diving skills focus on line drills - running a primary reel, following that line without visibility, following that line while sharing air without visibility, following that line with mask off. While there is also buoyancy, trim, and propulsion techniques, I encourage my students to work on buoyancy and trim before starting a cavern class. Fundies and cavern are very different classes. While taking a fundies or intro to tech class prior to cavern can be helpful, they don't cover the skills taught in cavern.

 

[Phreatic Fanatic]

.... But basically, anyone with a Fundies tech pass has taken most of a cavern class, except the lost line, lost buddy, and lights out drills.

And then there's that whole 'diving in an overhead environment' thing. Such a minor detail.

 

[TSandM]

I did not in any way mean to say that it was okay to dive overhead environments without training, and Rob, you ought to know me well enough to know that I do not believe that it is. I do believe that one can do the cavern tours in Mexico without overhead training, so long as they are conducted as they should be, and that someone with Fundamentals training is way ahead of the curve on doing that.

I would also probably say that someone with solid Fundamentals skills is less likely to get themselves into severe trouble in a cavern than someone without that type of training -- but if they DO, they are no better equipped to get themselves out of it than any other untrained diver.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Lynne, my statement wasn't intended to mean you meant overhead training wasn't needed. I was just clarifying that having taken fundies training does not mean someone has taken most of cavern. Fundies doesn't even cover 1/4 of what's supposed to be taught in a cavern class.

 

[Crush]

TSandM,

I did not understand your previous post to mean that GUE Fundamentals is equivalent to Cave, or that someone who has mastered GUE Fundamentals was safe poking around in the Cavern region of a Cave. I was therefore surprised by some of the follow-on posts. However, I would like to make a small amendment to your last post - an amendment which is hopefully seen by you as being "friendly."

I would also probably say that someone with solid skills like those taught in GUE Fundamentals and elsewhere (e.g., NAUI AOW + SRD) [-]skills[/-] is less likely to get themselves into severe trouble in a cavern than someone without that type of training -- but if they DO, they are no better equipped to get themselves out of it than any other untrained diver.