Cavern diver certification

[LiteHedded]

PfcAJ isn't saying you need to be perfect all the time. he's saying you do need to be perfect when you're showing someone what perfect looks like

 

[TSandM]

I think, for someone who is interested in some skills development, perfection is neither contemplated nor necessary. If you want to be trained to tolerate task loading in perfect trim, find an instructor who will do that -- they're out there (and you and I both know where to find them, AJ!) That kind of instruction is fun for those of us who want it; for people who are looking for basically a "recreational" cavern class, that strictness would probably take all the fun out of what is, at heart, a recreational class.

What a cavern instructor needs to do for EVERYONE is instill respect for the cave -- for the dangers it represents, and for the need to conserve a resource one cannot repair. The people I listed will do that for everybody.

BTW, Bil and Steve Bogaerts just did some seriously bad-ass cave exploration; somehow, I think that, even if Bil's trim isn't always perfect, he's managed to stay safe in some spooky places for a long time

 

[PfcAJ]

The divers in your list have the knowledge to know what its cool to be out of trim. The brand new cavern diver does not.

If you're demonstrating something, do it right and set the bar high. Show what the skill is supposed to look like. Anything less does a disservice to the student, the caves, and the community at large. If you're OK with mediocrity, thats fine. But keep it to yourself and don't pretend that its acceptable for instruction. Its not.

How many times have we heard about the degradation of cave instruction over the years? Now, all of a sudden its acceptable to DEMONSTRATE skills improperly? Come on guys...

 

[Dive-aholic]

Re PADI's Cavern Class vs. other classes -- I just did a quick review of the skills to be demonstrated and learned in the PADI Cavern Class and realized that it does NOT include lost line or lost buddy drills. I honestly can't remember if I did lost line and lost buddy drills in my Cavern Class (TDI) so I don't know if this is the norm. I know I did Lost Line and Lost Buddy drills during my first set of training dives but I did Cavern/Intro together so I just can't remember what was done in which class.

None of the agencies (that I teach through anyway) specify lost line and lost buddy drills at the cavern level. That isn't specified until Basic/Intro cave.

 

[TSandM]

But Rob, they do do a lights-out exit, right? Otherwise, I'm going to back up to my earlier statement that, if you have taken Fundies (and a wreck class to learn line-running) you've taken most of cavern.

Like Peter, I did cavern and Intro in four days. I can't remember what we did on any specific day.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

The divers in your list have the knowledge to know what its cool to be out of trim. The brand new cavern diver does not.

If you're demonstrating something, do it right and set the bar high. Show what the skill is supposed to look like. Anything less does a disservice to the student, the caves, and the community at large. If you're OK with mediocrity, thats fine. But keep it to yourself and don't pretend that its acceptable for instruction. Its not.

How many times have we heard about the degradation of cave instruction over the years? Now, all of a sudden its acceptable to DEMONSTRATE skills improperly? Come on guys...

AJ,

With my posting history on SB, do you really think I'm about mediocrity? If I encourage standards above GUE then "the porridge is too hot." If I advocate a little leeway and something below GUE standards then "the porridge is too cold."

In cave diving education, we've got some young fit guys with less experience who can nail a skill perfectly. We also have older guys who are full of information and years of experience who may have injuries or less physical ability due to the aging process. In other sports such as football, great coaches often use younger athletes to demonstrate the things they can no longer do as well.

I know one of the most amazing educators in diving who started cave diving in the 1960's who has some physical dexterity and slight trim issues due to injuries. He nearly lost limbs due to a high powered round folding him in two and nearly amputating his legs. He is no longer actively teaching cave diving, but still teaches tech diving due to where he lives. He seems to know everything about everything and as a boat captain and tech diver, he usually solves a problem before anyone else even realizes it had been taking place. He needs to hike his tanks up for a valve drill, but he can still swim through tight spaces like a ghost without damage or silt. For cave dives he uses sidemount due to his injuries. Do we not let him teach or do we let him impart invaluable knowledge to others because his lower back fatigues and he lets his butt drop?

I'd say that if a diver never made muster, he shouldn't be an instructor, but what about those who did and paid their dues? Do we do to them what West Point did to Audie Murphy? "Yes, we realize you were awarded the CMOH for taking on the Third Reich from a burning tank while protecting your men, and we realize you were awarded the most medals of any U.S. Soldier in WW II, and we also realize you became an officer due to proving your leadership and courage in battle, but we are very sorry that you cannot attend the United States Military Academy at West Point because you don't look as pretty when you march due to injuries sustained in combat."

Without feedback instructors can also lose the demo quality skills they developed during their training.

There are things that are right and things that are wrong with the skills in both AG's and Bil's videos. But, they can also be valuable tools for learning much like when discussing videos from GUE classes. Students learn just as much from what's wrong as they do what's right.

I can tell you when Bob Sherwood and I started a video project in which we wanted to get everything "perfect" without the smallest mistake ... well, we're still working on it a year later. So, we are setting the bar so high we have nothing yet to show you. I can't speak for why AG would leave some mistakes in his videos nor can I tell you why Bil Phillips put those videos up without being in perfect trim. But, what I can tell you is I've used those videos successfully as teaching tools to create divers who aren't tools.

I do not know enough about Bil to recommend him or not recommend him as an instructor. Those I recommended, I recommended for various reasons because they each have something to offer I find valuable for my students.

One thing I don't want is for my students to have a Tech 2 trimix accident because they think they need to be in perfect trim when they can't operate a rear dump valve on a wing and won't sacrifice trim to fix the problem through the corrugated hose.

 

[Phreatic Fanatic]

But Rob, they do do a lights-out exit, right? Otherwise, I'm going to back up to my earlier statement that, if you have taken Fundies (and a wreck class to learn line-running) you've taken most of cavern.

I think you are severely discounting the information and skills taught in a good cavern class. While I agree that fundies and a good wreck diving class teach similar skills and are good courses to have taken, they do not mostly prepare divers to safely dive in a cavern.

 

[TSandM]

Carl, I suppose that is a good question.

To get a tech pass from Fundies, you have to be able to manage all the basic skills -- mask clearing, mask remove and replace, regulator exchange, modified S-drill -- without moving off depth or losing trim. You have to be able to do an air-share without losing line awareness, depth or trim. You have to do a buddy-assisted no-mask swim, again without losing line awareness, buoyancy or trim. You have to surface an unconscious diver, under control. And of course, you have to do a competent valve drill without losing buoyancy or trim. And of course, you have to demonstrate at least two non-silting kicks.

In the wreck workshop I took, we had to do line running and cleanup, and we had to do lights-out line following as a team.

I thought the lost line and lost buddy drills were part of our cavern class. If they were not, what IS in cavern that isn't in Fundies plus a wreck workshop, other than the fact that the skills take place under the overhead?

 

[Phreatic Fanatic]

The overhead environment is a huge difference. The combination of the confinement of the overhead (a barrier against a direct ascent), (typically) colder water, darkness, depth, silt and/or percolation, and multitasking adds a significant amount of psychological stress for the diver(s) to which the other classes simply do not expose the divers. The confined space magnifies the slightest mistakes in buoyancy, trim, and propulsion techniques. Then there is gas management, line awareness / protocol / etiquette, conservation, landowner relations, accident analysis, cave and cavern geology / formations & terminology, psychological aspects and controlling stress, hazards of the cavern environment, and problem solving.

The other courses are definitely not covering most of a good cavern course.

 

[TSandM]

The combination of the confinement of the overhead (a barrier against a direct ascent), (typically) colder water, darkness, depth, silt and/or percolation, and multitasking adds a significant amount of psychological stress for the diver(s) to which the other classes simply do not expose the divers. The confined space magnifies the slightest mistakes in buoyancy, trim, and propulsion techniques. Then there is gas management, line awareness / protocol / etiquette, conservation, landowner relations, accident analysis, cave and cavern geology / formations & terminology, psychological aspects and controlling stress, hazards of the cavern environment, and problem solving.

Hmm. Well, no open water training is in a true overhead, and the psychology issues related to that I acknowledge.

In Puget Sound, day diving below about 30 feet, or any afternoon or evening diving year round, is dark, and no cave I've been in meets the 45 degree water temperature we live in. And the silt in the bottom of Puget Sound is more similar to Florida cave silt than to Mexico sand, and Lake Washington is way worse.

Fundies teaches the gas management and line awareness, and my wreck (and Rec Triox) taught line awareness.

The rest of the things on your list are unique to cavern classes, I think, but are a small amount of the time and energy spent on cavern education.

I did find the true dark, and line following away from structure or a bottom, to be difficult. And again, I'm not suggesting anyone who is truly interested in cave diving not taking formal classes. I'm just thinking that, after this discussion, someone interested in skills development who doesn't live where there are caves, might be just as well off to take Fundies and wreck class, as to travel to take cavern.