Cave Diving vs Wreck Penetration training

[Rhone Man]

Most agencies which provide cave training sub-divide the course into several segments to enable divers to progress and develop skills as they penetrate deeper. Similarly, most agencies that teach wreck penetration seem to condense it into a single course. The result seems to be that a diver which has been certified to full cave has spent a great deal more time in training and refining their skills under the supervision of an instruction than a diver who has exhausted all the available training for wreck penetration.

In a sense I can understand why this arose from a historical perspective (cave diving training seems to have been better coordinated and organised from a much earlier point in time), but looking at the position 'here and now', it does seem strange to me that diver training organisations haven't applied more focus to training for wreck penetration. People can argue about whether caves are more dangerous than wrecks, but they both seem plenty dangerous enough.

I have never done any cave training, but I did do the TDI Advanced Wreck course, and I was very conscious that all the way through the instructor kept cross referring to cave diving techniques, and even gave us cave diving manuals to look at. I was definitely left with the impression that wreck penetration training was, in his view at least, a bit second class (which is worrying, because that was the toughest course I have ever done).

Why don't agencies offer more intensive wreck penetration training?

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Wreck penetration is going to be considerably shorter than a cave dive typically, I'm sure that has alot to do with it.

Its fairly easy to break a few thousand feet to a mile of penetration on a cave dive, you'd have to really be trying to do such a thing in a wreck... with very few possible locations to even allow it.

 

[TSandM]

An interesting question . . . when I thought about it, this is how it came together for me. Basic cave training is skills training -- it's buoyancy control, non-silting propulsion, line techniques, communications, and problem-solving. All of this is very applicable to wreck penetration as well.

Advanced cave training is navigation work, marking intersections, cave awareness, and handling problems when you are MUCH further from your exit. Most wrecks don't have permanent line with intersections (if any do), and you're never going to be doing a 48 minute no-viz exit on your line from a wreck.

So I think there isn't the need for breaking up wreck penetration training in the same way, because the initial class really can cover the things you need to know adequately.

On the other hand, wreck training very quickly involves staged decompression, so I guess you could consider that part of the training as well. It's quite possible to dive caves at the Full Cave level without incurring any decompression, if you choose your caves right

 

[Blackwood]

This is all hearsay (I haven't been pay attention to diving long enough for it to be otherwise), but it seems that there used to be a pretty strong Us vs Them mentality between Wreck and Cave divers (still is, maybe, particularly in the anti-line wreck crowd).

That could play into different philosophies for training when one considers that (at least ideally) those who define and teach the training protocol are those who are doing the dives.

In my wreck- but not cave-trained mind, there is a lot of similarity between the two environments (though note that my wreck training was based in cave protocol). As others have noted, wreck penetrations tend to be shorter and perhaps less complicated from a navigation standpoint, and caves don't tend to have rusting man made structure and doors which can close behind you, but really, OH is OH.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

An interesting question . . . when I thought about it, this is how it came together for me. Basic cave training is skills training -- it's buoyancy control, non-silting propulsion, line techniques, communications, and problem-solving. All of this is very applicable to wreck penetration as well.

Advanced cave training is navigation work, marking intersections, cave awareness, and handling problems when you are MUCH further from your exit. Most wrecks don't have permanent line with intersections (if any do), and you're never going to be doing a 48 minute no-viz exit on your line from a wreck.

So I think there isn't the need for breaking up wreck penetration training in the same way, because the initial class really can cover the things you need to know adequately.

On the other hand, wreck training very quickly involves staged decompression, so I guess you could consider that part of the training as well. It's quite possible to dive caves at the Full Cave level without incurring any decompression, if you choose your caves right

That's pretty accurate ... at least in my limited experience.

I got my staged deco experience first ... diving deep wrecks (200 ft+) but with no penetration.

Then I took my wreck penetration class ... mostly what I learned new here was running a reel, doing tie-offs, and managing the team.

Then I took Cavern/Basic/Apprentice cave ... wasn't much of a challenge till we got to the Apprentice level, because Cavern/Basic skills were mostly transferrable from things I'd already learned. Apprentice involved more decision-making that had nothing in common with wreck penetration, due to differences in navigation requirements between wrecks and caves.

Then came Full Cave, which was predominantly more complex navigational and gas management decisions that have nothing in common with wreck diving.

The physical skills are transferrable between the two ... but the mental approach to planning and executing the dive are much less so ... the navigational skills, even less ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

Among some of the other reasons stated, there are (historically) very few wrecks where the instructor can actually be "in control". With silt, rust, and real deco there just aren't that many wrecks suitable for beginning overhead training so its tough to write courses and standards which can pass legal muster. With the advent of more prepped and sanitized artifical wrecks (often in shallower depths) there are more training options nowadays, but its there's probably some hesitancy to "train" someone in a relative easy overhead environment but have them go forth and dive real wrecks with 10x the hazards.

Learning the skills in a cave yet diving a wreck avoids your widow coming back to the cave instructor and well you know the rest...

 

[Dive-aholic]

You don't have to pay a boat charter fee to do cave training. You do have that additional cost to do wreck training. Just think about trying to coordinate with decent sea conditions and paying for the charter for 8 days of training on wrecks.

 

[ucfdiver]

This is all hearsay (I haven't been pay attention to diving long enough for it to be otherwise), but it seems that there used to be a pretty strong Us vs Them mentality between Wreck and Cave divers (still is, maybe, particularly in the anti-line wreck crowd).

That could play into different philosophies for training when one considers that (at least ideally) those who define and teach the training protocol are those who are doing the dives.

In my wreck- but not cave-trained mind, there is a lot of similarity between the two environments (though note that my wreck training was based in cave protocol). As others have noted, wreck penetrations tend to be shorter and perhaps less complicated from a navigation standpoint, and caves don't tend to have rusting man made structure and doors which can close behind you, but really, OH is OH.

I think a lot of the negativity towards wreck divers from the cave community has to do with the damage traditionally occurring in the winter time around FL caves.

You see a lot of....interesting...things in the winter around here.

 

[karstdvr]

Each environment requires its own respect. I have seen NE wreck divers come to cave country to take a class,and pretty much resigned to the fact this will be easy due to all their experience,but leave the cave with a humbling experience. Conversely,I have seen cave divers who think this wreck thing will be easy,but completely out of their element because of current, rust-silt etc. Don't ever let one specialty substitute for the other,because they are similar but not identical,and your life depends on you knowing survival skills in each environment.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think a lot of the negativity towards wreck divers from the cave community has to do with the damage traditionally occurring in the winter time around FL caves.

You see a lot of....interesting...things in the winter around here.

Dude, it's hard work dragging crowbars and hammers through a restriction ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)